Sat, Nov 21, 2009
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Name:
PEACHES4U
Comment: As usual, Morris your prolificness abounds. I do so love your using your mother, Mrs. Kay O'Kelly as an analogy for the topic. It was fresh, amusing, and something many of us can relate to. I too understood the context of the pontiff's speech. However, and I concur with you it was the wrong place and considering the past and current political climate, the wrong topic/choice of words. I watched during specific segments of his speech, and also wondered why [since he chose to include this particular passage] he did not elaborate further on the context and purpose. I've heard Pope Benedict speak before and this is his usual pattern, but not during this particular speech. In addition, I pray that this pontiff does not damage the works, legacy of John Paul II. There are very few 'one human being to another' figures, and I know John Paul was one. Malcolm X was afraid to open his spiritual and human eyes to fact/truth, and his was %*$assinated for it. Martin Luther King knew and espoused the facts that there were many before him speaking out, dying, and documenting the heinous reality of Jim Crow. He realized the inevitability of his [planned] death. The 'list' includes Steve Biko, Children of Soweto [June 16, 1976], the 14th Dalai Lama of Tibet, . . . BUT, and we all know there's always 'one' in the crowd that has to _ _ _ _ it up for everbody!
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Name:
xavixavi
Comment: Hey Mo We need to put both our moms in a room together:)
My mom's tude is "Why not...It's TRUE".
Don't matter what it is.. Ifn it's true in her eyes, she will tell you about it.
Don't tell her nuthin u don't want someone to know either.:) rofl
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Name:
xavixavi
Comment: As for the pope's comment. I agree it was a dumb azz thing to say, but his "apology" sunday just made it worse.
It essentially went. "I'm sorry IF I offended you". Not I'm sorry I said those words, or maybe it was inappropriate.
We all know that the "masses" rarely look at context, and more oft than not just look at words. That's why we must choose our words carefully. There is a reason a speech is written first!!!
His "apology" imo was actually worse.
Someone who is the spiritual leader of so many people should have known better.
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Name:
YLawdY
Comment: Funny and on point. My mother's favorite refrain to me growing up.."You don't have to say everything you think." I think me and Miss Kay could be good friends, sit down have a discussion about the Pope and his dumb azz reference...in Germany.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: That's weird, nothing from 'indipindinkthinkr' as to why I 'never' address serious subjects.
That's odd...
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Name:
Story2tell
Comment: I agree that the apology was as bad as the actual comment. He did not apologize for his comments, but apologized for the "reaction" to the comments. What kind of mess is that?
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: You're all correct. The apology only made bad matters worse. And true, it wasn't about apologizing for the remarks, just sorry he's in this mess.
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Name:
Priceless
Comment: CTFU@set trippin ... okay now that I have gotten a lil laugh, in as much as I am not really a fan of The Pope, he was reading medieval text and the Muslim showed their anger and hurt with violence ... the extremist just like to fight *shrugging shoulders*
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Name:
YLawdY
Comment: Has anyone noticed that this seems to be the nature of apologies by public figures? By inserting that "if" into the equation, it's like placing the blame back on the audience for being offended, not acknowledging that whatever was said was offensive.
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Name:
xavixavi
Comment: YlawdY -- I agree w/ you. Mel did the same thing recently, but then went back and made it VERY clear that he was apologizing. Usually when 2 apologies are made that's the reason.
What was said wasn't actually offensive, in my opinion, but as I stated earlier. The whole world isn't listening to every single word of most speeches, and when you are trying to make a point, it's best to stay clear of inflammatory remarks. He could have emphasized his point more clearly in his speach that he didn't believe it to be true, but by quoting the writer, then leaving it up to those who hear the speach to assume what he meant, he opened a can a worms.
He should totally apologize for being so stupid.
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Name:
MER82
Comment: Context my azz. I don't understand the need to have a speech addressing what some other hypocritical white man from days long past had to say about another religion to begin with? It was stupid and incendiary and he had no business opening his holier than thou white mouth to say it.
Peaches--what are you saying about Malcolm X? I don't get it--it was in fact when he spoke the truth that he was %*$assinated by his own...
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Name:
SweetieDarlin
Comment: Oh, Fudge, the computer ate my comment. Okay gotta go now so for now, co-sign Morris' column and everbody who made a comment. Catch you all tomorrow if we are still talking about it. But how about a question? Why is it sooo hard for many of us to be tolerant of other religions (not counting Satanism of course...) How do we know that we have the 'right' religion?
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: The very premise of most if not all religions is their absolute nature. We live in an age of monotheism. The Greeks, Epyptians and other cultures had room for polytheism but when you live in a world in which there is only "one" God and "He" "only" finds favor with "one" people who pray a certain way and follow certain religious tenets...it leads to dire consequences.
The only troubling aspect of monotheism is that most if not all are founded upon the premise that the religion must spread. And to spread, usually the idea of conquer and destroy are linked. It's not okay for us to just be a Christian, we're expected to spread the Gospel, and a similar idea is true with Islam. Therein lies the problem. Religion is by most accounts exclusionary and only inclusive if you first accept the religion.
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Name:
Story2tell
Comment: >MER82...my sentiments exactly!
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Name:
queeniebunz
Comment: Okay, I have another take on this. Pope Dude said something stupid. Yeah, he did, and at the worst time possible. The other day, Rosie O'Donnell said that Christian extremists are as bad as Muslim ones. But guess what? The same Christian nuts she was talking about - the ones who bomb abortion clinics and kill abortion doctors - and they ARE nuts, but the Christian nuts did not retaliate to WORDS by killing a Muslim cleric like these Muslims did a nun. I submit for discussion that these folks doing this killing aren't really killing "in the name of Allah". They are psychopaths who will kill somebody if you tell them butter ain't yellow. I wonder if these folks even go to Mosque. Do they pray 5 times a day or are they too busy blowing people away for saying boo to them on the street? A true practicing Muslim, Jew, Christian does not kill in the name of his respective religion because NONE OF THEM TEACH KILLING. These folks are using Islam to justify their violence and that is the real crime. How come nobody focuses on that? How come nobody attempts to fully understand the other religions to understand that they do not teach to kill in the name of the religion? That's my question. Pope Dude shooting off his ig'nant mouth is not to blame here for these killings. The ig'nant fool with the gun is.
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Name:
Secret
Comment: Hmmm your mom sounds like my kind of person. With that being said. I don't understand what the problem is. It's not like he was lying. Then they go right out and do exactly what he's says. Is there really anything that anyone can say that won't offend the Muslim’s I mean they get angry about everything under the sun. These people are fools trying to reason with them is pointless. I don't think he should have to apologize for a damn thing. No one apologized when the Muslim’s were talking about Condoleezza giving birth to a monkey. No one apologized for 9/11. To hell with the damn NUTS…
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: I would think the issue is not whether someone believes such a remark is true or whether the response validates it...it's the overall point of the remark and whether more good or harm is brought about through its utterance. I'm sure you'd receive heavy debate as to whether it's "true" or not, but few would debate that it's an incendiary remark and nothing good would ever come of it.
Just because something may be "true" (and again there's debate to be had on that point) doesn't mean that something is "truly worth saying."
Nothing good could possibly have come out of those remarks and given the state of the world today...why even go there. Because things are obviously much worse now because of it.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: A short way of saying all that is...true or not, the remarks served no purpose and only inflamed the situation. So why say it at all. The freedom of speech also requires responsibility.
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Name:
MER82
Comment: Co-sign Morris.
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Name:
Secret
Comment: Some people can't handle the truth so we should avoid it to keep the peace. Not in my world. I'm shocked to hear this coming from you. Oh well I don't think we are any worse off then before. They hated before the remarks and they continue to hate now. I know I'm not going to tipptoe around and not say what I feel so that someone else can feel comfortable in their lies.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: I wouldn't say 'tip-toe.' I would say that sometimes discretion IS the better part of valor.
I can write a column and not worry about the world implications. But as the head of the Roman Catholic Church in 2006...not the same thing.
I'm sure there are things that George Bush says in private that may or may not be true, but the implications of public disclosure could be disastrous in nature.
Truth just isn't enough...not in terms of making sure the world doesn't implode in the process.
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Name:
xavixavi
Comment: Morris, you were a little soft on Secret.
Secret is just like my mom. My mom will say isht out her mouth about people just cuase it true. She don't care who it hurts, and it gets her in a lot of trouble.
What he uttered wasn't necessarily the "truth", it was an opinion written by some man hundreds of years ago. Now was that worth the trouble it's caused.
Freedom of speach doesn't allow you to yell fire in a crowded theater when there isn't one.
The pope yelled fire/gun, and look out all in the same breath! Then had the balls to say oops sorry you got upset, those words that came out of my mouth weren't my opinion but someone else.
All I keep thinking about is that they were saying he was called John paul's "attack dog"
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Name:
jab122
Comment: Sorry for being late in the game this week, but I pretty much agree with what has been said so far. It was a pretty ignorant thing for the Pope to say in light of the world environment of today--he really could have foresaw this type of reaction, I know I could. And further, he tries to cover up his ignorance by claiming that the comments came during the course of a academic theoretical talk..., and so? I mean there is a lot of academic work out there that is inflammatory. I am sure that Charles Murray of the Bell Curve fame (who claims that African Americans simply have the same intellectual ability of whites) believes his work is scientific! For me to refer to his hate filled work without multiple forms of renouncements and qualifiers in public could easily lead someone to believe that I am agreeing with his statements. The best thing to do I would say is to not even go there!
I am shocked by this oversight on the part of the Pope and the Vatican, because his/their actions seem really irresponsble to me. Finally, don't believe that I am letting muslim extemists of the hook, but if history has shown that this is how this community reacts to these types of incidents why would the Vatican fan the flames--or in this case start them? Again, its just plain A$$ dumb.
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Name:
Secret
Comment: xavixavi, your right I am like your mother, but I've never gotten into trobule for saying the truth. People's feeling may get hurt but that is never my objective. I am just the seeker of truth. I blieve in it whole heartly. The TRUTH SHALL SET YOU FREE is my model.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: The truth may set "you" free but there are repercussions that affect more than just you. I would imagine if you were the pope or some head of state...you keep speaking with no measure of pause and you will start a World War.
Truth or facts can never supersede consequences.
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Name:
mayday
Comment: Morris....I don't think that the Pope should have apologized at ALL. Period. The apology did more harm then good but hindsight is 20/20. Had the Pope been apologizing for his own thoughts then the apology would have been warranted but he was quoting someone in an Academic context. The fact that the Pope was in Germany....well what? There is no right time or right place to say anything against these muslim/islamic radical terrorist killers. Even had it not been the Pope that made the comments the reaction would have been the same. Lets not forget last year when the radicals lost their minds over a cartoon article in the Danish newspaper. They rioted, killed, looted and tried to set the country on fire for 30 days. The only thing that I agree with our fool of President about is this......There is no negotiating or compromising with the islamic radicals. I can't be politically correct on this one..to tell the truth (with or without repercussions) the quote was EXACT...there lie the dead nun and the call for the assination of the Pope. Please....what if we took up our armor and fought everyone that spoke out against Christianity in a public forum...we would have time for nothing else but fighting. Good article.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: The point about Germany is that it's just the wrong place to indict any group of people.
If you remember the first and immediate Muslim response to the Pope was likening him to Hitler.
If you want to get real deep, what preceded the the Nazi genocide of Jews was Hitler's propaganda campaign against Jews as being all of the stereotypes we hear about but also 'evil'...
That's what I meant by...GERMANY of all places.
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Name:
mayday
Comment: I understand and understood your point of "Germany" in my first post. My point is if we were discussing a different group of people other then the muslim radicals then "Germany" would be an issue. If we were discussing the Jews then Germany would be an issue but we are not. If the Pope had made that same speech in the United States, Africa, South America, Middle East, Antartica or Greenland for that matter the outcome would have been the same. The issue here is that you are trying to make a rational argument concerning irrational people. For example, you make a very good point in your article when you stated......If the goal is respect, acceptance and true acknowledgement of the Islamic faith in the way it “should” be, the abstention from killing nuns probably needs to be in short order. Y’all probably need to chill on the public death threats to the head of the Roman Catholic Church too. That is a rational statement and should give a person pause to think....however if a radical muslim extremist was near you he would try saw your head off with a butter knife.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: Agreed, you can't rationalize irrational actions. You are absolutely right.
But it's all that I'm allowed to use (reason) if common sense is ever to prevail.
The same was said of MLK Jr. in which that everything he said made sense even to racists but he was dealing with an irrational America.
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Name:
MER82
Comment: There are many people who believe that Bush represents Christian Extremists. They also exist. It is ignorant to target a group of people with your words which can be just as harmful as your actions--no matter who you are. The problem comes when no one differentiates between the Extremists who identify as Muslim from the rest of the Muslims. I am quite sure most folk who identify themselves as Christians on this board, would shutter to the suggestion that Bush and his extreme views represents all Christians. The Pope doesn't hold all truths, so why just because he said it or quoted it, does it make it truth?
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Name:
mayday
Comment: Great point and we could go back and forth all day on this topic because there is no right or wrong answer but I understand your point with the MLK reference. MER82...I believe that your post was directed at me so I will answer. I believe that many people differentiate between Muslim and the Extremist which is the reason why in all of my posts I referred to them as radical, extremist terrorist killer Islamic/Muslims....never did I say a follower of Islam or just a "muslim". I believe in Islam, Judaism and Christianity and I am a Christian that "practices" Christianity. The Pope is irrelevant to me....he simply was the vehicle used to send the message....my view would still be the same if the quote had come from you standing on a podium in Germany. Also, I don't believe that Bush has extreme views when it comes to Christianity.....Bush has extreme views when it comes to Politics and on top of that he has never drawn the line between Church and State (mistake number 1) and on top of that.....he just isn't all that bright. Politics and religion don't mix....they never have.
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Name:
MER82
Comment: Mayday-I wasn't posting to you directly-but since you responded...Bush doesn't "act" very well at being Christian, but that is the facade he hides behind. He waged war in the name of God and fights "terrorists" in the name of God. My point is there are Muslim folk who view Bush the same as some Americans view Muslims-as a whole-the enemy. So in the present climate that we are all living under, it is ridiculous for anyone to speak out against another group perceived as separate than-and think there won't be repercussions.
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Name:
mayday
Comment: MER82.....I don't agree with you. I am no Bush supporter but I have never heard him use or link God with the war or fighting terrorist. I have heard him talk on and on about his faith and faith cannot be measured or substantiated by other people so I tune him out when he speaks about his faith. Bush waged war for many different wrong reasons such as Weapons Mass Destruction, falsely linking Saddam to Al Queda and it was all about revenge for his daddy, oil and stupidity. Not only are there Muslims that look as Bush and United States as the enemy but most of the world has the same view point when it comes to America. I also disagree about the "repercussions".....other religions are made fun of and mocked everyday....Christianity, Scientology (if you view that as a religion)Buddhist.....but I have yet to see anyone retaliate like the radical, extremist, terrorist killer muslim group. This has been enlightening but some crazy man scheduled a 3:45 pm meeting on a Friday. TGIF
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: Oh, Bush links God and the War on Terror every single speech he makes. Every speech is filled with "prayer" "faith" and "God"...without fail.
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Name:
xavixavi
Comment: Hey Mo, You are gonna love this one.
They actually WARNED the pope that the speech may cause problems BEFORE he said it, but he ignored the warnings.
According to NBC news where I was listening to the report, it is feared that because he has spent so much time behind vatican walls, he is more about getting the "message of Christ" out, than how it comes off in speaches.....
I.e. "Well it's the truth"... I just had to add that b/c that was the jist of your article.... HILARIOUS!!!!
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Name:
MER82
Comment: I've made my point, other than that-you are on your own Mayday.
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Name:
mayday
Comment: I guess it is how you interpet the speech Morris. Bush always mentions prayer, faith and God....I guess I am speaking literally....I have never heard him say.....we are fighting the terrorist in the name of Jesus, the Father, son or Holy Ghost or God but I guess it can be inferred. Bush links the war on terror without fail and at all times to Saddam Hussein and that is why we are in Iraq instead of Afghanistan. Sadly, because the Islamic religion has been hi-jacked by a few we are constantly being told or shown that we are being attacked in the name of Allah and the Jihad and death to the Americans praise Allah. Although it is only a few radicals...they have a mighty platform (media) to get their message across by their brutal actions. OK, I am done with this topic..not because I think that I am right.....there is just no wrong.
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