Mon, Nov 23, 2009
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Name:
cassie811
Comment: Great column Mo. Your comments are on point. I associate most of what Barack will have to endure is much like joining a sorority! You have to pass the test, take the good, bad and indifferent and still have the gumption to move forward. As I read this article I questioned myself as to what I believe the black agenda is. Quite honestly I don't know as it seems that sometimes we are so confused as to what we want and/or need. On faith I think Barama will do as well and go as far as he possibly can in this race. Will he win? Well, my heart has hope that he will but my mind says this is more of "practice run" if you will, much like how a runner trains for a race.
Have a great day!
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Name:
Gua1
Comment: Mo, you are on point. If I could write as well as you do I would have said much of the same. So lets hurry up and wait for the fire-storm and hope Barack and us are up for it!!!
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Name:
HHCassius
Comment: I still think the haters are out there. I know that we should not vote our race, however, I can't believe that 52% to 28% are behind Senator Clinton over Senator Obama. Dreadful...
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Name:
dport
Comment: Great seeing you back Mo'Kelly. I have to agree but can't say I know enouugh yet about Obama. My mom already is moving more towards Hilary Clinton as a long-time fan of hers. I will say it is great to see what seems to be a great Afircan-American candidate for presidency. This will be a historic & interesting race. A woman and an African-Amerian. What disturbs me also are the negative comments to come from 'us'. One of which doesn't even wear his hair in it's natural texture when this is what we used to do to be more like 'them'. I hope I'm ready for all of this.
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Name:
CaramelDimples
Comment: Welcome back and thank you for calming my anxiety. I had so much to say and didn't know how to organize my thoughts to speak and you did it very well. As you stated, there is so much more to come. Historically, America will accept a black man over a woman for a leadership position, so I'm confident in that sense. Looking further ahead, I'm too scared for the threats/lame security should Obama win the General. God, please help us!
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: Obama definitely messed up my plans for the ’08 season. I promised myself that if Mark Warner or Hilary Clinton ran I would dedicate all my free time to writing and organizing one of their campaigns. Then Obama jumps in and I’m faced with a choice that I really don’t like. It’s very difficult for me to reconcile giving my support to Clinton when there is a chance that we could have a black president who I actually like. It’s exhilarating to think about. However, it is also difficult for me throw my support to Obama b/c nationally he’d be a tough sell against McCain and Romney. Then the argument is, who has a better chance? Obama with all his blackness or Hillary with her vagina and all the people who hate her? Right now it’s kind of exciting…but once the primaries begin, I think Democrats are going to be majorly confused about this and that could land us in the losers chair ONCE AGAIN! Last time it looked to be that Howard Dean was the sureshot, then one yell later and we end up with a race between Gephardt and Kerry, two drones that I never ever, ever wanted to support. I’m thinking that the same thing could happen here. Dems could punk out on Clinton and Obama, esp. since some conservative primary States are the first to vote, and we could end up with Chris Dodd or Bill Richardson as the nominee. I’m just all confused. Right now I think I’m going to settle for volunteering with the DLC and DNC and see where that leads. I think if I were chairman of the DNC, I would get really serious about polling Democrats, perhaps conduct the biggest national poll ever, and find out who the Dems like and throw full committee support behind that person and ask the DLC for agenda support. Bottom line, Obama aside, I do NOT want to lose this time. *mean mugging the Republians*
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Name:
dcdouglass01
Comment: I wish Obama success. And he's the obvious media darling for the moment. But the fact is, as HHCassius pointed out, Barack trails Clinton (and Edwards) by a significant margin. Which is to say, if the Democartic primary were held today, he'd get trounced. But let them flail away for the next year, and we'll see who comes out on top.
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Name:
PEACHES4U
Comment: Herein lie buried many things which if read with patience may show the strange meaning of being black here in the dawning of the Twentieth Century. This meaning is not without interest to you, Gentle Reader; for the problem of the Twentieth Century is the problem of the color-line.
W.E.B.
Du Bois
How appropos Dr. Du Bois' statement is to a 'condition' some during his believed would not exist in the Twenty First Century. Yet, we of [his] future generation[s] know better via some many experiences, and will see much more as stated by 'Bro Mo.' Biden has been around long enough to 'know better.' It is my humble opinion that his hoof and mouth dis-ease was deliberate. I'm sure we've all noted the new 'thang' in 'Americana' politics, that is, make whatever politically incorrect statement you wish, apologize for it, and whatever you state, make sure it SOUNDS sincere. Mo, as far as I'm concerned you've said nothing new, and you are [more than] correct.
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Name:
DOne
Comment: This is all very interesting. My take on all of this is that it won't really matter. I believe that the mess that Bush has created can not be cleaned up in 4 years. As a result, the next president will likely be unpopular for his or her inability to clean up Bush's mess fast enough. I predict the next president will only hold office for 4 years afterwards someone will come in and build upon (and take credit for)the clean up that was already in place. If I was a white male republican, I would almost want Hilary or Obama in the white house so when they are not able to clean up Bush's mess fast enough I could say two things: 1 - see the democrates couldn't do any better 2 - see a woman/black is incapable of running the country. Then in 2012 Republicans sweep back into the white house while benefit from all of the hard work from the 2008 adminstration.
On a side note, although I like Obama, if I were a supporter and voter in his district, I would have mixed feelings because quite frankly, it seems like the moment he got elected to the Senate he has done nothing but campaign for presidency, so I'm left to wonder just how well is he serving his district.
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Name:
xavixavi
Comment: First thing I gotta say is "Scylla, Charbydis", how many people know about that????? I ain't seen those words in print since High school. (I like greek mythological stories.) The rest will google:)
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Name:
HarrisThomas
Comment: DOne=>you are thinking strategically. I add to your comments the following observation: China's military presence will %*$ert itself in the next president's administration. Ain't us got fun? [nope]
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Name:
xavixavi
Comment: They will do all as you say, but I know that he knows this, and something tells me that book was intended to mitigate most of the junk that will be said about him w/ his own personal spin BEFORE the press gets a hold of it.
I saw part of his 60 mins interview, and the more I see the more I like.
I do believe he will NOT be pres though. I don't think America is not ready yet.
I think having a "fresh" politician makes us closer to the idea.. maybe 8 years from now...
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Name:
HarrisThomas
Comment: hey! those extra characters were not in the response that I sent
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: I'm just sitting back because I'm loving the depth of this conversation.
And for those like Xavixavi who appreciate oblique and random references like the Greek mythology ones I threw in...thank you for paying attention. :)
I try to throw in stuff like that every now and then. :)
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Name:
xavixavi
Comment: Done,
I like your way of thinking, but I do believe that the Dems problems are more about pr & fear than about anything else.
This time, whoever gets the presidency will talk about it being Bush's problem that they are trying to fix until we get tired of hearing about it -- listen to most of the dem nominees, especially Hillary.
If they stick to that formula, they should be okay. That and stop being such wusses!
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Name:
rikyrah
Comment: Mr. Kelly, your column is definitely on point. I think that we better be ready to batten down the hatches, cause we won't have seen anything this ugly since the days of George Wallace and Bull Connor. Make no mistake about it, the guns are blazing. Did you read the Salon.com piece which actually CALLED HIM UPPITY? And, THIS is from a magazine with supposed progressive views? Of course, this is the same magazine which published that mess by Debra Dickerson about Obama's 'authentic Black' credentials. But, I still maintain that I want him to run. This is a conversation that this country needed to have with a Colin Powell run for the President. It was just put off for a few years. But, it's time. It's time that Black people see that we should not only have a seat at the table; we should be at the HEAD of the table. It's time that Black people see a man running for President OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA....not President of BLACK AMERICA. It's time for Blacks and Whites to change their paradigm, or at least be challenged on what they believe Black folk will be. I believe our community needs to see it as much as the general wider community. We need to understand that he's in it to WIN. There is nothing half-%*$ed about the group of people that he's %*$embled. These aren't people ' who fight the good fight'. He's not about making some sort of protest candidacy. He's not about just putting forth some issues. You want to ask him about reparations? Ok. But, also ask him about rogue Nuclear Weapons, North Korea, China's entreaty onto the continent of Africa and what it all means. He has to play by two sets of rules, and we all know it: the general rules and the ones that apply to US. He has to navigate them both. I still contend that Harold Ford forgot about the 2 sets of rules, and that's why he can only walk the halls of the Senate as a visitor. Barack Hussein Obama and his run for the Presidency is going to test us all.
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Name:
Renegade
Comment: The most ironic statement in this article is the quote by Alan Keyes. Not because what he said was false, but because his neo-con politics do not match up to his historical statement. Sounds like jeolousy to me. However, America is a long way from ready to have a Black Prez. I wish I were wrong.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: Renegade...you caught the 'irony' in that...glad to see it wasn't lost on you.
(And glad to see your thoughtful contributions to this discussions. Keep them coming.)
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Name:
rikyrah
Comment: And, I must add this. Make no mistake that Obama is rocking the boat. That he's challenging things on so many levels, that folks are quaking. And, it's not just the right wing Republicans that are quaking. That's the easy group. No, the others that are quaking are the Democrats, who have been able to gather up a bunch of ' Leading Blacks' (thank you, Dr. Julia Hare), and keep the rest of us ' in line'. Barack Obama threatens that gravy train for the ' Leading Blacks'. And, the Blacks that he has around him, aren't in the usual circle, waiting for the Clintons, et al, to bestow the crumbs to them. From a community standpoint, Black people better begin and wake up. Because, if his candidacy is allowed to get a beatdown FROM US, then we will not deserve any respect, and the Democrats will know that we'll always just be stuck there, looking stupid, grasping for crumbs at the table. The window for the consideration of a Black President, IMO, is quite narrow. What I mean by that, is that if we're seen as not being willing to support our own, then why should we be taken seriously. You and I both know, that the Democrats are chomping at the bit to make all those illegal Hispanics citizens, so that they can toss us aside, and tell us to sit down ' in our place'. If you don't, you're fooling yourself. But, if we stand up, and support this man - monetarily, and with our vocalness- let the Democrats know that nonsense ON THEIR PART WILL NOT BE TOLERATED - then, we will do ourselves as a community, a huge favor. Obama's run can translate downward, to other Black candidates in more statewide offices, IMO. But, only if we get smart. Obama will be torn down from the outside...do we REALLY need to tear him down from the inside too, thus undercutting all of us. Don't think it's a 'coincidence' of all these ' is he an authentic Black' articles. This is being done to separate HIM from US. Willie Lynch ' divide and conquer' all over again. Don't fall for it, people.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: Rik< Can you explain the 2 sets of rules you are talking about? I have to ask b/c of my undying love for Harold Ford Jr. I agree with xavi as well. Bush was the first Presiden to campaign throughout his presidency. If a Democratic Pres. does the same, then the Bush mess will not be blamed on them.
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Name:
rikyrah
Comment: IJA, Harold Ford lost that race because of the ' Where De White Woman At?' Ad. Plain and simple. What would have blunted any momentum of that ad? Having his own version of Michelle Obama by his side. I know this sounds antiquated. I know it sounds 19th century, but it is, what it is. NO Single, Never-been-married Man is gonna be elected to the United States SENATE without a wife by his side. Plain and simple. The only one it didn't apply to was John F. Kennedy, and he was a Kennedy of Massachusetts. You can be divorced. You can't be a single, never married man. As especially if you're from a Southern State. Even if they had the Playboy ad, IF he had a wife/fiance by his side, he could say that 'those were the indiscretions of my youth, but I found the love of a good woman, and those days are behind me.' Would have cut that mess off the first day, and as smooth as Harold is, could have turned the entire thing around about how this is insulting to his wife/fiance, and he wants Corker to apologize to her for it (thus bringing in the galant man defending his woman image). To compound this, Harold also messed up interfering the Corker Press Conference. A big no no. IJA, you know that he went from being Harold Ford, to being 'The Angry Black Man' in 1.1 seconds, and allowing the other side to say that he didn't have the ' temperment' to be President. Was it fair? NO. But, that's the second set of rules that 'WE' have to deal with in order to succeed. Obama canNOT tell them to go to hell with the future racist statements that will be hurdled his way. He simply can't. He'll have to take the ' high road'. I've read on White blogs, that they don't like Obama being so ' passive' in face of these attacks. As a Black woman, I don't see him being Passive. I see him confronting these attacks - look at his response to that Australian idiot -, but he has to have skill with it. THAT is Obama's Black Tax - ain't fair, but it is what it is. And, I believe Obama knows that.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: Yeah, the Australian comments...I just shook my head.
Like WTF does it matter to HIM who's running for election over here? And why does he feel the need to offer his (uninformed) two cents.
And of course the media ran with it. It's just a sample of things to come.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: Rikyah< O ok, I thought you were going to say something like there are 2 sets of rules – one for blacks and one for whites and tell me how HFJ didn’t follow them but Obama is. So the two rules you are talking about is being married and appearing not to be angry? I know all of Ford’s campaign issues, and MCcain, who denounced the ad, has now hired the man who produced the infamous Ford ad so I’m sure they are thinking of something racist to say about Obama as we type this. Also, I can’t fault Ford for not being married b/c if he were married/engaged it would be to a white woman, and then he would have never had a chance in the first place.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: Mo< It mattered to PM Howard b/c he and Bush have been f*cking for years now and he was just waiting for his moment to attack a Democratic position. The fact that the person he attacked was black was prob. a bonus to his conservative azz. I like how Obama was like, umm you got 1400 troops in Iraq, send 20,000 and we'll chat.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: Oh, you're absolutely right IJA...but you don't hear Tony Blair et. al chiming in on CANDIDATES. That was the thing that got me.
For this Australian idiot to chime in on a candidate only reinforced how 'serious' a threat Obama is and the fear he inspires.
Yes, I expect the conservatives to go there, but foreign leaders? Very, very interesting.
There wasn't a lot of commentary from other world leaders on Kerry...coincidence?
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: Mo< well you know how the austrialians treated and still treat the aborigines. Like slaves. Today, I read two op-eds from Australian papers, it was interesting to see their take on it. Both op-eds thought he was stupid to interfere, and that it was embarrassing and they couldn't figure out what he thought he would gain by saing it...even though one paper did agree with what he said. Speaking of John Kerry, he gossips like a woman. He told Imus on Monday that Harold Ford Jr. has a girlfriend. *pouting*
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: DAMMIT RIKY! I was thinking the exact same thing about your "set of rules" and you are 100% correct in EVERYTHING you said. There are some things that I'll be more blunt about tho'. Personally, I "cringe" and I mean "cringe" everytime I hear a black person debate if "america" is ready for a black president. I say this bcz the ONLY question we should be asking ourselves is are WE ready to throw our support behind a black president? I liken it to asking for yt america's seal of approval. Are we living in the right neighborhood? Did we graduate for the right school? Am I "clean and articulate" enough? Will they think negatively of us bcz of this movie? Are they laughing at or with us? Are they..will they..have they..and the list goes on. It pains me to hear non-black commentators (both dem and repub) speak of how the black community is seemingly "lukewarm" to an Obama candidacy. Although I can't verify, the most recent polling suggests that while Clinton rates high for blacks/whites in the lower income brackets..Obama rates high for WHITES over the 70g bracket. That is just mindboggling. Blacks questioning is he "black" enough IMO is straight up foolishness. He's a black man, with a black wife and obviously black kids, w/a liberal to moderate history. I honestly believe that WE will do much more damage to an Obama candidacy than ANY pundit, racist, radical, or political mastermind could ever dream. Although many people do, I make absolutely NO apologies for adamantly stating that I will ALWAYS see black first bcz I realize that sometimes we have to make certain sacrifices in order to move forward. I disagreed w/Ford's socially conservative views, but I would've voted him Senator bcz I didn't see him as a threat or a pettifogger like Keys. DAMMIT...just got the word...feds are closing at 2pm. Sorry..but gotta go..gotta go..gotta go right now. I'm sure I'll have to 'plain some of this stuff cuz I didn't have time to proof it and I'm sure I'm all over the place. Oh well..2moro ya'll!
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: -Herbs...you're not all over the place. I'd believe you're absolutely correct. The quickest way to torpedo the Obama campaign is to remove his "constituency". That is to say, as soon as non-Blacks start to believe that Obama doesn't have the full support of Blacks, then you can best believe they will start jumping ship. If we don't back Obama, don't expect anyone else to...long term.
And that's the point of all this. 'We' have been asking for a legitimate candidate of African descent...but 'We' knew that this would happen too.
Either we fully embrace him or stop talking about a "Black" president. No way in the world Obama does it without us, and when the shyt really starts hitting the fan, America will be watching "our" reaction to see if we stand behind him.
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Name:
azure15
Comment: The (ludicrous) "debate" if Obama is "black enough" is mere intellectual pretension on the part of a few who want to imagine that they "matter". The man came to Chicago and threw himself into community activism. He CHOSE to help black people. He happened to marry a woman from Chicago's black community. It is patently false to argue that he is fundamentally alien to the black community.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: Agreed...just know it will be one of the obstacles confronting him. We in the Black community have always had a "Blacker than thou/holier than thou" attitude.
It will be an issue in this election. Not taking sides (as I feel Obama is clearly "Black enough" for me and SURELY no in line with the African-American conscience than say Alan Keyes) but I know that it will be made an issue of...
Like I said, he can't be all things to all people.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: I meant "more in line than Alan Keyes"
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Name:
CrzyLdy16
Comment: Have any of these people heard him speak? Have they listened to what his wife says in interviews? What does the "not black enough" thing mean? I really hope it is not because he is cultured, educated, and successful.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: The "argument" is that his personal history may be of African descent, but he doesn't necessarily know the struggle of being "African-American."
But neither did Bill Clinton or any other president...or Hillary.
It's not fair, just the nature of the beast.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: I think the whole discussion about whether Obama is black enough is not being held by the black community as a whole. I think that's a convo being held by black leadership, academics, and media outlets. I'd only worry about that if you start hearing regular azz people making that argument...so far I personally haven't.
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Name:
rikyrah
Comment: Mr. Kelly, thank you commenting on the Blacker-than-thou crowd, because they're wearing down my very last Black nerve. We have to be willing to expand the 'what is Black' paradigm. You'd think, if you listened to the Blacker-than-thou group, that Barack Obama's Senate record was akin to Sam Brownback's. Those that rate on a progressive scale, have given him an 84 or 85 rating. 84 or 85, and they're upset with him? If I had someone who was with me 85 out of 100 times, I'd be thrilled. I suppose they'd only be happy if he had a 100 rating, which, I still put forth, CANNOT HAPPEN. A Black candidate, running for something other than a majority Black Congressional district, CANNOT WIN with a voting record like Ted Kennedy, Russell Feingold, or the late Paul Simon or Paul Wellstone. Not if they want to stay in office. Call it a 'Black Tax', if you want. But, if you want to achieve higher office, you can't be all the way left wing. These are the facts. Where is Black Folks' sophistication. I'll say it again: the man is running for President OF THE UNITED STATES. Not for President OF BLACK AMERICA. I do wonder if ' We', as a community, are ready for a Black man who MEANS that he wants to sit at THE HEAD of the table? You could literally SEE the crabs in the barrell at Tavis' Black Fest on Saturday. That group, while entertaining, HARDLY represents the BREADTH and DEPTH of the African-American community. It was definitely ONE slice of the community.
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Name:
mcctusk
Comment: IJA I think RIGHT NOW
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Name:
Closet_Nerd_Girl
Comment: I'm coming in late and haven't read the posts, but I just want to contribute my 2 cents about Obama. I, for one, did not want him to run. Now that he's running, I don't want him to win (not that I think he will). I like Obama and what he stands for, but in all reality Amerikkka is not ready for a black President. If by some miracle he were to get elected (or even get the Democratic nomination) I believe he will surely be azzizzinated. And that would really be a waste. He can do so much for America, blacks in America in particular. I would much rather he be in a position of power behind the scenes, directing the President and influencing the President's decisions. Like Colin Powell or Condoleeza Rice, except I know that Barrack Obama would use his powers for good. As far as him not being "black enough" for black people- I think that's a load of crap that them white media is putting out there. It's "divide and conquer" all over again.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: To Rikyrah,
I feel your comments on so many levels as those who want a more "Black" Obama disregard the fact that a "more Black" Obama means less viable candidate.
I will say this, any Black man who even ostensibly catches the imagination of such a wide variety of people across gender, race and age demographics is amazing in this day and age.
He doesn't have to come from the same stock as me but needs to understand where I come from. He doesn't need to 'act' like me, but he(she) needs to be true to who he/she is and not pander to me.
Obama is much more in line with what I'm looking for (although I'm a huge Hillary fan) and I'm not as critical of him as other African-American leaders.
I just know there's hell waiting for him, especially if he gains any type of momentum as this race moves forward.
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Name:
mcctusk
Comment: Yeah so like i was saying, I think that the converastion is being held by the leadership and academics right now because it is still early. I think that we (and I mean Black people) will unfortuately have no problems with jumping on the latest bandwagon. We will be force fed all of the reasons why we shouldn't elect Obama just like we are force fed Coca Cola, computers and Chevrolets. I just hope we don't buy it so easily.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: To Closet Nerd...
No, it's not "the White Media" it's very real. I can't even specifically say everything I know, but there have been a number of public statements by those the likes of Cornel West and others doubting the direction and focus of Obama in terms of the African-American agenda...so it's real.
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Name:
Closet_Nerd_Girl
Comment: I hit Submit before I was finished. I also don't want him to be President because if he does win, and survives his term in office, then he will end up being the fall-guy when the mess in Iraq is not cleaned up quick enough. That debacle will take a minimum of 2 administrations to straighten out. But he will be the scapegoat.
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Name:
azure15
Comment: >>Closet_Nerd_Girl - We understand your fear. However, first of all, Obama is a warrior. And warriors accept that they may have to make deep sacrifices to advance their people as a whole. Second, as Michelle Obama has said, as a black man, Barack could be killed while going to the gas station, regardless if he's running for President or not.
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Name:
azure15
Comment: I haven't seen West's comments at the State of the Black Union regarding Obama. It looks like eyebrows were raised over Obama's announcement coming while the Black Union was going on. Maybe some feel that this was a snub of some sort.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: To paraphrase...some people (including Dr. West) felt that Obama 'should' have made his announcement at the State of the Black Union and it would've helped solidify a constituency of African-Americans. Announcing it from Illinois didn't endear some people to him.
Some people, not all, some people want him to take a more active "Pro-African-American" stance and not merely stop with "I am African-American."
Like I said, he can't be all things to all people. Also there are a lot of egos involved at the highest levels. Some African-American leaders seem to feel as if they want to have a say in whether Obama is anointed or not as an "African-American leader."
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Name:
rikyrah
Comment: Mr. Kelly, you gotta be kidding me. He should have made his announcement at the State of the Black Union? Oh, please. See, this is what I mean. They won't be satisfied until they completely ruin his chances. Did you hear what those two Clintonistas said in South Carolina? Like Hillary Clinton has a rat's %*$ chance of winning ANYTHING south of the Mason/Dixon. Spare me.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: Hey, I'm not speaking on my sentiments...just reiterating some of the criticism. It will re-air on C-Span on Thursday, so you'll be able to interpret for yourself.
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Name:
rikyrah
Comment: Mr. Kelly, I don't doubt you. I watched a great deal of it. Cornel West did everything but say ‘Obama is financed by the Jews’. Cathy Hughes? I admire the woman’s business sense, but for her to be posturing, defending the purveyors of the Modern Day Minstrel Show , all the while, putting together a radio network, at the base of whom has cut off, for all intents and purposes, the Black NEWS AND INFORMATION part of what Black radio used to be about - was ridiculous.
The panel they %*$embled was a smart group of people. But, it wasn’t politically diverse in the least. It was the Blacker-than-thou progressive part of our community. Nothing wrong with that, but we are more than that.
I’d have love to have seen Robert Woodson any of those panels. There ARE a handful of Black conservatives, who are actually doing grassroots level work. They should be represented there also.
I think Obama could handle himself quite fine, if he went there - that I don’t doubt. But, considering that we have the whole ‘ is he authentically Black’ mess floating around…would it really have been prudent to go to a place where the underlying shots at him on those panels was that?
Like I said before, I wanted him to run. I believe the country needs for him to run. I think the hell we’ll go through as a country because of him running, is something that should have been done with a Colin Powell run, which never happened.
But, it’s time. It’s time for Black people to realize that a man running for PRESIDENT of the UNITED STATES, and not PRESIDENT of BLACK AMERICA, has to be treated differently. That we have to broaden our horizons.
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Name:
SS11
Comment: WOW! Stop the hating. Fabulas article MO. But we as African Americans need to learn to love ourselves first before anyone else will give us any respect. I personally will vote and campaign for Mr. Obama because he is black, after all I have voted for all thiose other jack %*$es for years knowing that they could care less about us and one thing for sure is that he could not be any worse than what we have had for centuries.The world will be watching some of our black idiots as they continue to vote for their master and they willl be watching our racism in this country as we try to export Democracy across the globe and call us all hipocrites! Get out the vote. The Cival rights movement is back. Just wait and see !
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Name:
barnone
Comment: when i read comments regarding Obama's "blackness", etc. made by black people it only reaffirms the reality that William Lynch was completely on point in his psychology to "dealing" with the African in America, for it is 400 years later and we r still struggling with the same old issues, we r still a house divided, therefore cannot stand. Keyes of all people should b the last n line to question one's blackness. and what exactly does an obvious black man have 2 proove n order 2 b considered "black enough". as far as him not identifying with the "black struggle". on the contrare....any black person, be they african-american, african, cuban, panamanian, can identify with the "black struggle" b-cuz it is universal. we as a "black people" are discriminated against globally. furthermore, the mere fact that he married a black woman and he was birthed by a white woman speaks volumes IMO.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: mcctusk< omg, I hope we don't fall into that trap. *praying* Rikyrah makes a great point though...black people need to get to the point where they can accept that if someone black is elected to ANY political office they are everyone's president, senator, congressman whatever. You can't expect them to be talking about issues that are immediately recognizable to blacks as black issues. Because the reality is, if you name any major issue right now...the war, the budget deficit, minimum wage, healthcare, they ALL affect us b/c we are not an insular community, we are part of a larger country. If those problems are fixed, they are fixed for us all. Ed Gordon interviewed Charles Rangel on Saturday, and Rangel said that when he became Chairman of ways and means, the first thing black people did was ask him "what are you gonna do for black people" and Rangel was like, you mean, what am I going to do for everyone? And Rangel is old school and even he realizes that we can't look at things so divisively.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: Obama is NOT black he is mixed. Why so much support? Most here dont support black/white relationships and the children they produce- yet when these mixed children are doing good "black" people want to claim them. Any other time its more like "you aint black brotha". "You dont know the struggle man", "You have it easier cause you light man". Get Real.
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: IJA..I do believe that the discussion of Obama's "blackness" is being held by those you suggest. But, that doesn't explain his current poll numbers (although I sometimes question their accuracy). Even so, the media, black leadership, and academics oftentimes influences what "regular" people think. "Regular" people thought that Bush was a godsend who would not just protect their country but also their moral values. The regular people got the idea from somewhere. Admittedly, I have an issue w/race neutrality which is why I have been "lukewarm" to Condi and Colin bcz they don't "publicly" speak to the black community. Unfortunately, that's the way the game it to be played..if you want to win. While Obama will be America's president, he most certainly will be black first. Therefore I don't have a problem w/identifying him as the first potential "black" president...because that's what he is and not saying does erase that fact. AZURE..I LOVED the fact that Michelle felt "comfortable" enough to say that on national TV. We too often feel as if we "can't" talk about race publicly when it can do more good than bad. But, WE have to decide that we can have that public discussion. Amongst my non-black associates, I make no qualms about stating that I want to see a black president, vice president, defense sec..etc. For some racially nuetral people..it's an issue.
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Name:
ATLGirl
Comment: Late to the game, but I co-sign with yunvme. I believe those who don't consider Obama "black enough" don't read MOKelly. As we've already read on this site, there are plenty who feel since Obama was raised by white woman he's always gonna side with YT and can't be trusted. I can't be the only one who remembers those posts, can I?
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: I have no problem w/Obam's mien. Like someone said he can't and won't be everything to everybody. Riky was right in saying that he is an absolutely sedulous candidate for president even with his lack of "experience." I would love if we were really able to have an open Forum w/black America (dems, repubs, inde's) and decide if Obama is "our" guy and publicly throw our support behind him. The common leitmotif is that we "can't get along?" Vox populi suggests the same. Will an Obama candidacy prove that true? If we don't do it now...we shouldn't expect it to happen anytime soon.
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: ATL..I also somewhat agree w/yunv. I think it's his complexion moreso than his racial makeup which is why even "non-blacks" are more comfortable w/him. But, that's a larger issue that we still haven't dealt w/.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: Musb< Now that you mention it...I think we are right to question the polls...I mean, when these questions are asked they are not asked with context. I azzume they are asking black people if they support Obama yes or no...while the black person in their mind is thinking, I WOULD support Obama but I don't for these reasons (b/c he could be killed, b/c he won't win nationally etc.) that have nothing to do with how black he is but still register a 'no.' Does that make sense? And I'm with you on two more things: one that the media can brainwash people into having a discussion they never intended on having. The first thing I thought when I read about the debate about whether he's black enough was "who in the hell started this?" My guess is that some WHITE journalist asked the question and some black person responded unwisely. Now the story is picked up all over the place and we don't know which came first...the debate or the debate about the debate. 2ndly, I do think America is more comfortable with light skinned blacks, throughout history the lighters ones have always been the firsts...Thurgood Marshall, Edward Brooke etc. No denying that.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: I just asked a simple question and it still hasnt been answered. Why are we accepting him as a BLACK man when he clearly isnt?
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Name:
ATLGirl
Comment: I have no problems with Obama as a candidate.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: What I'm trying to get at is, do "black" people pick and chose who can be in "the club"? He would have been denounced faster than you can blink if lets say....um...he was dating a white woman. If hispanics are so proud of the heritage/culture/history, and African Americans our so proud, and Chinese, etc. Why not let the "mixed kids" have their moment?
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: 'herbs...you used "leitmotif" here on EUR? Standing ovation. Talk about a rarely used term (an operatic musical term at that).
Strange'! Strange'!
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: No, Barack Obama is Black...he CLEARLY is. Be it Jim Crow definition or not. He is of African descent and identifies himself as African-American.
He is as "Black" in terms of blood as Halle Berry is, Hines Ward (Black and Korean) and all of us who are racially mixed on both sides of our families at some point.
Barack Obama is unquestionably a Black man...the debate (for some) is whether his consciousness is as much in line as some African-American leaders would like it to be.
But in terms of ethnicity...you can't deny his Blackness on any level.
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Name:
ATLGirl
Comment: "Mixed kids" can't have their moment because a majority of "non-mixed" folks will ALWAYS question their loyalty. "Mixed kids" always have to defend their parentage, their perspectives and their appearance in a manner that wouldn't be tolerated by a "non-mixed" person. But I guess, you probably wan't someone other than me to answer now. :)
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: There is likely nobody in this country who is African-American (i.e. not African immigrant)...nobody in this country who descended from slaves who doesn't have either Native American and/or Caucasian blood in his/her veins.
So if the litmus test is being "pure" Black...forget it. Have you seen Thurgood Marshall, Charles Rangel or Dr. Charles Drew?
Would you dare say any of them weren't Black?
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: YUNV...the answer to your question is YES. Blacks do pick and choose who can be in the club. IJA...That's exactly why I always 2nd guess what the media and polls say bcz I know how "persuasive" they can be. Many more of us need to do the same. Hell let me media tell it, Americans vote solely according to how much experience a candidate has which is the greatest lie ever told. No one knew much about Bush other than his father, he was a governor and seemed to be a staunch conservative who would uphold conservative values. So this Obama needs all this experience thing is bullcrap. No he just needs to be convincing.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: I really meant Adam Clayton Powell, not Charles Rangel, but you get my point.
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Name:
ATLGirl
Comment: MO, I wouldn't say any of those people weren't Black, but I do wonder in the eyes of their contempories, where they considered Black? Today, people question Obama, Tiger, Halle, Mariah, Alicia...
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: ATL...to your point and 'Herbs point.
Yes, we do 'pick and choose' who is 'down' (i.e. African-American consciousness)...but irrespective of consciousness, all those folks are still 'Black'.
It doesn't matter what Tiger says...we all know better. Same with Dwayne "The Rock" Johnson.
Whether they are "Black" is more an objective determination. Whether they are down for the cause is subjective.
But ALL that we've mentioned are Black.
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Name:
azure15
Comment: >>yunvme - Practically speaking, Obama identifies as black mainly because of the "taxi test" or the "cop test". (This analogy has been noted by a couple of columnists - it's not original.) If cab drivers in NYC or cops saw Obama, would they say, "I've got a hint that you're biracial. If you don't mind me asking, are you?...You are biracial? Cool! Good enough for me!" (proceeding then to respectively pick him up for a fare or ease off of him)? NO! For cab drivers, cops and others, they're gonna see a BLACK man, and treat him as such. If anything, Obama is simply being realistic about him. Not to mention that (1) he consciously involved himself in community affairs (environmental racism, etc.) once he got to Chicago, and (2) married into the Chicago African-AMERICAN community. To think that this brotha is proud to be black, and ANYONE DARES to give him crap about it...what a shame.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: But Morris BLACK people do question and deny a mixed persons blackness all the time. My question is why? Its always when a "mixed" person has done something or achieved something great that "Black" people in turn embraces them. Any other time its different. Put a mixed person who obviously looks mixed in a room full of "BLACK" people and that mixed person would be an outcast.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: I'm not talking about how white people view a biracial person, but how Black people view them.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: Well, I think we're arguing the same thing. Yes, Black people are rather arbitrary with who we "claim" and why.
But what isn't arbitrary in this instance is that Barack Obama clearly claims his heritage and shouldn't be put in the same vat as Tiger and the rest.
This to me is all tied to the crabs in the barrel self-hatred mentality that precludes us from unifying.
For example:
Najee Ali has been rather vocal about "boycotting" Norbit because of the alleged poor visuals of Black women.
But you never, EVER see Najee lifting up any positive films. You don't see other leaders getting out folks to support the good examples that are opposite what they protest.
Big Momma's House 3 is already in the making...so why isn't there any discussion about that movie now if the protest is sincere? Why wait until the movie comes out and try to catapult your name to stardom in the form of a protest. It's all to me indicative of a sickness where we can't stand for someone else's success unless it's on our personal terms.
It's not enough for Barack Obama to be an exceptional individual who claims his heritage and married to a sista... he needs to be Black Panther Pro-Black.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: Unfortunately "It's not enough..."
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Name:
azure15
Comment: I'm quoting this from ATL Girl, who in turn I guess is summarizing one thought put out by individual members of the media and intelligentsia: "As we've already read on this site, there are plenty who feel since Obama was raised by white woman he's always gonna side with YT and can't be trusted." In effect, black and other voters in Chicago and Illinois have ALREADY "vetted" him as a genuine, sincere candidate. His record is public. He's not a stealth candidate. If he were a sneak, believe me, we wouldn't hold our tongues in critique. Anyone who says that simply because he's biracial he shouldn't be trusted is IGNORANT in the purest sense, in that his record is out there for people to INFORM themselves about him.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: "Intelligentsia...leitmotif"...damn, this is good!
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: lol@O'kelly. I can't say I've ever seen it used here. YUNV...I really do think it has to do w/your level of "consciousness." Blacks embrace non-blacks all the time. Teena Marie and Bill Clinton are prime examples. As for the mixed person in the room, I'm really not sure what environments you're in bcz I haven't witnessed that. In fact, if you consider our own "color consciousness" we tend to like "mixed race" people more cuz that means our babies will have some gud hair and possibly light eyes.
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Name:
azure15
Comment: >>musbdherbs - What's cool about Michelle is that she shows that you can bring up race as long as you speak INTELLIGENTLY, straightforwardly about it...not in a wild, inflamatory way.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: For every black person that embraces (for whatever reason) a mixed person, there is a "black"- and dont let them be dark skinned, person who resents them just for what they (the mixed person) looks like. Supreficial yes, but real. It really cant be explained, just as you cant explain to a white person that calling Obama intelligent was a subconscious diss.
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Name:
Closet_Nerd_Girl
Comment: >Morris- I haven't heard any black public figures questioning Obama's blackness. But, sadly, it doesn't surprise me. He certainly is "black" enough for me. He does not shy away from being black. Why is it that (probably those same) people have no problem saying Tiger Woods is black, when he continually distances himself from anything black, even though his father was black, he looks black and he lives in America. But then to say Obama, who is conscious, with his black self, black wife, black kids, isn't black enough. Go figure....
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Name:
Closet_Nerd_Girl
Comment: >azure- I saw the 60 Minutes interview when Michelle said that. Truer words were never spoken. I just hate that he's setting himself up to possibly be the sacrificial lamb. But I do understand the importance. If King, and countless others before him, had not made the ultimate sacrifice, where would be as a people be? I have to give him and his wife credit for being fearless in that regard, and ready to accept the possible negative consequences of his quest. I truly, truly pray for his safey.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: yunvme< I see where you are coming from...but I still think that Black people have always been the ones to accept biracial people that's why we always get so offended when someone shows even the slightest tendency to distance themselves from blacks. Biracial couples found a place in black communities, churches, schools etc. LONG before whites ever accepted them. Yes, there is a complex in the community about light skinned vs. dark skinned but that's irrespective of whether you are biracial or not b/c as we all know there are plenty of non biracial people who can 'pass' such as HFJ and plenty of biracial people who are not necessarily recongizable as such like myself.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: He would be the first half black president. Thats all I'm sayin.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: Yes, that's a good point. Obama, win or lose furthers the cause.
Here's a historical parallel:
Many believed Jackie Robinson was a sellout (because of his political ideals, Nixon supporter et. al)...
But he was chosen to be 'first' in baseball because he could best balance the needs of coexisting in both worlds. He could endure the harshest of racism because he had the temperament to do so, yet was fully immersed in the "consciousness" of African-Americans (read: Negroes/Colored folk back then).
But it was widely known that Robinson wasn't the most talented player in the Negro Leagues. But he was the best to make America change.
I think there is definitely a correlation here.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: Half Black...all Black...whatever.
He's Black and percentage of blood running through his veins doesn't lessen his Blackness to me.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: Tiger is a good example. We jumped all on the bandwagon over the "black" wonder kid. Look at us all filled with pride cause one of "our" own excelled. The truth of the matter is he is not BLACK but bi-racial. Now we dont even consider him black anymore because he didnt marry a sista.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: the funny thing is I dont expect you do understand what I'm saying because its just like when white people dont understand that calling a black person articulate is an insult. - its the same kind of thing. If he looked like one of those latin lookin biracial kids his "blackness" would most definetly be lessened in your eyes. You may not want to admit it but yeah its true.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: yunvme< Don't be ridiculous, black people still consider Tiger to be black! Now whether Tiger considers himself black is in question. It's just that we don't rush to support him. In the past he has seemed indifferent to the community so we have become indifferent to him. *shrugs shoulders*
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: ok. now thats what I'm saying...why do you consider him black when he is not? He is bi-racial.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: yunvme< if Asian people want to consider Tiger Asian than they are free to do so and so is Tiger. He IS Asian. I'm Asian. I'm also black. And Tiger is black. It's not that you can't be more than one thing it's just that we, as black people love it, when somebody identifies with us b/c we have always felt a sense of community being minorities in this country. IT's the whole be black and proud mentality. It stings when someone has black in them and doesn't seem to celebrate it. Jeez, what are you biracial or something.
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: YUNV...IMO regardless of how other blacks classify him..he will and always will be black. I personally don't have a problem w/Woods and never have. Blacks had a problem w/him correctly azzerting that he's mixed. I didn't. I think your use of mixed is nothing but semantics. I have never heard a person of any heritage be reffered to as anything other than what they appear to be. The history books and 99% of Americans say that Thurgood, Dorothy Dandridge, Halle, Obama, Terrance Howard, etc..are all considered black....they are the first black [insert achievment]. So if Obama wins he will be the first black president.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: If I was, would that make my views more valid?
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: my point is that "black" people are the first to distance/separate themselves from biracial people, but when one of them is successful in something its all about them being "BLACK". Hypocritcal.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: yunvme< no it wouldn't... but it would explain the hint of bitterness I'm feeling from you - which, of course, I may be reading wrong. I'm only going off of my own experiences with biracial people and how they sound when these issues come up.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: I disagree Yunvme...
I don't think Black people distance themselves from "biracial" people, we distances ourselves who don't CLAIM the Black portion of their ethnicity.
Huge difference.
Nobody ever backed away from Tiger, Halle etc. The difference is how some people were rubbed the wrong way AFTER Tiger didn't adamantly claim his Blackness.
And therein is the proof. Black people were angered (some, not all) because he was VIEWED as Black and didn't claim it.
Not a priori because he was bi-racial.
Derek Jeter is considered Black too...biracial.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: please people. dont get it twisted, I know all about the "one drop of black blood" thing. I know he is black. Most view him as black. But no one here can tell me that there isnt a distinct line drawn in the black community between bi-racial/ and BLACK and this line is drawn by BLACK people. Not white, cause to them if you aint white you are black. My question is why. I understand pride and all that but why do we do this? Why generalize someones heritage cause it makes you feel good? Why come down on a person cause they might identify more with the side that is not black. If they are mixed and acknowledge that, but still identify with one side more how can anyone say what they should feel and or do?
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: YUNV..And I do think you're being ridiculous...lol But really tho' you must've had some really bad experiences. I can truly say that I have not witnessed blacks distancing themselves from bi-racial people simply bcz their bi-racial. Hell, I know when I was in school being friends w/the bi-racial kid was "in." Do u live in Des Moines, Bismark or some'n cuz gud lawd, I wonder what blacks have u been around. Another debate we should be having is whether we expect black republicans to support a black dem like Obama. Or in other words, should we switch "party lines" in order to support a black candidate? If so, what kind of candidate should that be.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: Yunvme...By your argument, my father isn't "Black". Native American mother and West Indian father. He is in fact bi-racial. My mother's grandmother is half Spanish (as in Spain and Black).
All that aside...am I any "less" Black because my blood isn't 100%?
And by your argument, my father would not be Black and thus I'm not "Black" either as you've contended in effect that "bi-racial" children aren't Black. So therefore the children of bi-racial children can't be Black either.
I would like to think the percentage is largely irrelevant.
I'm an African-American...period, plain and simple.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: 'Herbs...
I seriously doubt Black Republicans will vote for a Black Democrat because just being a Black Republican, there's a separation from the "Black body politic" and (generalizing) Black Republicans are voting their individual interests, not collective conscience.
I can't fathom how Black Republicans (i.e. those loyal to Bush) would somehow be also willing to consider Barack Obama. They are diammetrically opposed.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: Yunvme< yes yes that’s what the biracials believe. The only biracials I knew that didn’t hang out with black people were those that grew up around all whites and were uncomfortable around blacks. Oooooooooooo Musb, you just took it to a whole ‘nother level. *kisses Musb* hmm that’s a hard one. I can say with 90% certainty I would have voted for Colin Powell. But that’s b/c, although he was technically socially conservative, he didn’t stress that so much. Most of his conservatism was conservatism in a true sense i.e. smaller government, state’s rights, constructionist jurists, anti-nation building etc.…I don’t agree with those values HOWEVER I can respect them. Now if the black president is a raging neo-con…I’m not sure if my conscious would allow me to vote for him. I’m really not sure.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: No bad experience here. But you cannot sit here and tell me that all is good in the hood and black/ bi-racial is all the same. Maybe I shouldnt have used the word distance. But black people certainly do draw the lines between the two. A black person is the FIRST person to call someone mixed. That is DRAWING the line.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: Hey Herbs- you said "Hell, I know when I was in school being friends w/the bi-racial kid was "in." ....THANK YOU because you just proved my point. If we are all the same then why would it have been "IN"? Think about it.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: yunvme< ANY person of african descent that seems to have an issue with their blackness is gonna irk black people. They can be biracial, brown skinned, or black as a boot and 100% Kenyan. If you got a problem being black, black people are gonna have a problem with you. That's just how it is.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: what is "being black" is my black your black?
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: "Being Black" is claiming your heritage, not distancing yourself from it. Being Black is accepting you are part of the larger aggregate of African-Americans and seeing yourself as included in the struggle for equality.
That to me is "being Black."
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Name:
azure15
Comment: yunvme - Let me say that you have the right to identify yourself however you'd like. But I will resist your claim that blacks are the FIRST to distance themselves from biracials. Historically, it's flat-out wrong. I and others resent your implication that overall whites are "fairer" towards biracials than blacks. Yes, there may be a few haters who've given individual biracials crap, but you cannot honestly say that in general blacks treat biracials worse.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: But note "BEING" is an active VERB.
The state of Blackness in terms of ethnicity, is objective.
Tiger is a Black man...objectively. But Tiger isn't trying to BE Black.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: but cant you "Claim" without "Embracing". Ok so Tiger claims his heritage right? But the problem seems to be with how others feel he embraces his blackness.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: have you ever met him? how would you know? That man loved his father. Do you think Tiger didnt think his father was black?
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: I wouldn't say Tiger "claims"...he acknowledges it...and that may sound like semantics but in terms of perception, it matters.
There's nothing he can say that will change for me whether I think he's Black.
He is (to me) what he is.
But everything he says/does speaks to whether he embraces it or is "being" Black.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: azure15 what you talking about? you did a whole lot of assuming regarding my post. You know what they say about THAT.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: Yunvme< I agree with Mo as far as what it means to be black in America. Yes, you can ‘claim’ without embracing which is basically what Tiger is doing. And, yes, technically black people are wrong for judging how another person views themselves. However, we’re not talking technicalities here. We are talking about a black sense of community, which is really the only thing that has kept us alive in this country. Plus usually when biracial people don’t want to embrace being black it’s because they see something wrong with being black which subconsciously sends a message to other blacks that they see something wrong with you. If you’re bald and you’re having lunch with someone that keeps going on and on about how they don’t want to lose their hair b/c bald people are ugly, wouldn’t common sense tell you that they think you’re ugly? Hmm that analogy didn’t quite hit the right note, but you totally get what I’m saying.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: Ok. I'll replay something I saw on the train just the other day. NO LIE. Black guy trying to talk to this girl. She looked, lets say latin-ish. Somewhere in the conversation I picked up him asking if she were Puerto Rican. She says no, I'm black. He then says YOU AINT BLACK. She then went on to explain she was mixed yada yada yada. Explain that to me please.
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Name:
azure15
Comment: Black kids irreverently asking if a kid is mixed is at one end of the spectrum, the other end being kids running "you're so black..." jokes on each other, and in the middle clowning someone if they're continually claiming all sorts of Native American tribes in their genes. As long as there's a general tone of playfulness, at least a minimum of respect, nobody should be that fragile just because someone was inquisitive.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: these were adults.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: Yunvme< So basically, a guy approaches a girl, can’t figure out what to say out his mouth, so he decides to tease her about being light skinned…you have to expound on that so that I understand how it fits into your larger point.
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Name:
azure15
Comment: OK, yunvme. Yeah, the boy was direct as black people tend to be with, "You ain't black!" But obviously, if he was tryna talk to her, he wasn't being hostile. He was being curious, in a playful way. The girl recognized this too...that's why she explained things to him instead of running away from him. She understood.
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Name:
rikyrah
Comment: Mr. Kelly, I thank you once again for bringin up the Jackie Robinson connection. Branch Rickey picked Jackie Robinson BECAUSE he was a former military man, as well as a college athlete (4 letter-man at UCLA). Branch Rickey told him that he was chosen because he WOULD NOT FIGHT BACK. Because Robinson had to have the strength of character to go through hell and not retaliate. There were better players, but ROBINSON was the one who could go through the fire, and make it out, and SHOW BY EXAMPLE. I believe the same thing is here, at work, with Obama. We have cut the wood, shaped it, made the table, sanded it down, made the chairs; sat on the outside of the room; sat on the edge of the room; maybe got a seat at the end of the table. Barack Obama is saying that, WE SHOULD BE HEAD OF THE TABLE. THAT is powerful, ladies and gentlemen. I'm not into "Messiah" politics; I don't believe in the ' Great Black Hope' to solve all our problems. WE have to solve our problems. But, it's time. It's time that our children TRULY believed that they could be ANYTHING. They'll have work hard, and it will be tough, but that they can make their own choices. And, when the republic realizes that the country won't be destroyed by having a Black man SERIOUSLY considered for President.....it will be that much easier for the next candidate. There's a little kid somewhere (not just a little Black Kids either), that this run by him, will have an impact on their minds. I know it will.
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Name:
Closet_Nerd_Girl
Comment: >yunvme- To fan the flames even further, I'm curious.... Did dude still want to get with old girl once she explained that she was indeed black? I'm wondering if that initial interest was still there...
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: she said matter of factly and with pride that she was black. He basically shot her down saying that she wasnt. Not just because of the way she looked but just because in his mind she simply was not BLACK. Thats all I'm saying. Its like a white person saying. I'm not racist. I dont see color. LoL. My point is yes you do see color. Just trying to make you see that. Biracial people are often made to feel different. Not cause thats how I imagine they would feel- cause I never claimed to speak for other people. But because of how others subconsciously react and treat them. I just think its funny that we generalize someone as black when they are biracial.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: I started talking on my phone. Dont recall what happened to them.
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Name:
azure15
Comment: yunvme, you wrote: "My point is that "black" people are the first to distance/separate themselves from biracial people, but when one of them is successful in something its all about them being "BLACK". Hypocritcal." I disputed your %*$ertion that blacks are the first to separate themselves from biracials. From where I sit, I was accurate in comprehending what you wrote.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: azure15- again, the point is- his and many peoples first reaction is YOU AINT BLACK. Why is that? Ask yourselves. So are they black, are they not, when/where and for what purposes do you draw the line?
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: From what I know...most Puerto Ricans are mixed with African heritage...as the African diaspora does include Puerto Rico, and other places like Cuba, Haiti, etc.
So someone (according to your story here yunvme) who obviously "looks" to have some features indicating African descent and says "no, I'm Puerto Rican" they're likely ignorant of their own heritage.
That's like saying, I'm not Black...I'm Haitian or Brazilian.
Just because "your" slave ship stopped in Brazil and mine in Jamestown...it's all the same.
You're Black.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: and maybe you skipped over one of the following post by me that stated " Maybe I shouldnt have used the word distance."
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: Its like talking to a white person and they get all flustered saying "I'm not racist" I like black people. People are people. When confronted with their inner feelings they get frustrated. We can go round and round- but if you dont get it by now you wont. I know EVERYTHING you are trying to say/use in your conter argument. No I'm not calling anyone a racist.
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Name:
azure15
Comment: >>yunvme - You cannot extrapolate random, individual occurrences into some kind of definite proof that black people HOSTILY draw lines with biracials. If anything, we're gonna be straight-up with our curiousity precisely because we're comfortable enough in our shared Africanness to know that no superiority or inferiority is at stake.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: this is soooo funny to me. Ok. None of you see a diffenece between a black man and a bi-racial man. SURE. While your at it explain to me again the big bruha ha about JLO when she used the word %*$!( in one her songs.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: since black is black.
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: YUNV..I really, REALLY think you're either intentionally leaving the basis for this whole discussion out or you just won't get it. Often, there is a
"physical/visual" difference 'tween being biracial and straight up negroid. Society, not just blacks acknowledge that. We don't just see color...everyone does. So the "visual" is quite different from the "mental." Tiger is one representation of that in that he "seems" to disconnect himself from his black heritage. Tht is not to say he didn't love his father. At the same time, although he IS half-asian or whatever, he only claims that heritage but doesn't seem to embrace being Asian. In contrast, in "Imitation of Life" (the 2nd version), although Sandra Dee was "bi-racial" by birth she chose to live her life as a yt woman. Again, disconnecting herself from her blackness. Beyond her physical appearance of passing for white..she didn't vascillate 'tween yt and black...she chose to identify herself as yt only. Do u not think her yt friends were shocked to find out that she was black? I'm not sure y ur making this a "black" issue when it's really not. So if you want to say that all people seem to draw distinctions regarding color..I say...yeah we do. But, it's really not a black thing. The truth of the matter is that it society is more concerned w/how u identify yourself BASED on how u look. At the end of the day, Tiger can be Blasian all day long....but at the end of the day, to everyone else he's black. I never even heard Asians refer to Tiger as Asian. Most I know say he's black...cuz that's what he looks like. Sandra Dee not just looked yt but identified herself as such. Thus, society said the same.
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: I have NEVER heard of ANY black person refer to Essie Mae Washington-Williams as anything other than black...not bi-racial but black. Her father Strom..was CLEARLY yt. Now if you think that "we" have this color issue, then we can only imagine how her non-black relatives feel/felt about Thurmond having a black child..not biracial..but black. Sally Hemmings?
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: To bring this discussion full circle...we should be able to agree that Barack Obama is "Black"...period.
Regardless of whether he's 50% or 100%...he's Black.
We should agree, he perceives himself as "Black"...and there's never been any indication he thought of himself otherwise.
He has openly embraced his Blackness (i.e. consciousness) AND his African heritage.
I believe the only reason is an issue for some is that he isn't on a soap box campaigning with "Black" issues at the forefront of his agenda or at the base of his platform. He can't win with "us."
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: MY concern is for the little mixed kids growing up. Just like how Italians have their heros, and Latinos have thier heros, and African Americans have their heros- why cant the little mixed kids have thier own hero. Someone to look up to and be proud of because he/she/they are "one of them". LoL. Why do "black" people have to go around and claim everyone that has black blood in them?
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: O'Kelly, I don't think repubs would cross that line either. I just put it out there cuz I know that the push to have them do so is sure to come w/many blacks suggesting that they are wrong not to. I personally feel like the sooner we begin to vote across party lines..the better off we'll be. That way, our votes won't just be solicited around election seasons but throughout the tenure of those in power. I also would've voted for Colin...now Condi..well...well...uhm...
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: Morris my question about JLO was directed to you. Why do you think there was such an uproar when she said the word n1gga in one of her songs?
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Name:
ATLGirl
Comment: RE: Puerto Rican,Haitian or Brazilian. C'mon MOKelly, that's a differnt discussion I have never confused nationality with race. But I've had plenty of African Amercians say "Oh, I thought you were Black." To which I've always responded "I am Black, that hasn't changed." I know many Black foreigners who've have the same experience.
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: OK..yunv...just stop it. Now you're really out in left field. Is Jennifer Lopez half-black or something? I thought she was Puerto.
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Name:
barnone
Comment: >yunvme...wtf..."he clearly is not black" how is he not black. what is your definition of black. okay, yes he is light complexioned. and yes his mother is white, but i'm not following how obama is clearly not a black man. is halle berry not a black woman? what about alicia keys, etc.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: I dont matter where you were dropped off from your slave ship. DUH.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: barnone they are all bi-racial. What is the big deal? I truly dont undersand.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: I have a problem with ANYBODY using -gga. I think the "possessive" nature some folks have about that word is silly and a WHOLE NUTHA discussion moving further and further away from what we're trying to accomplish here.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: Herbs- that should have read re: JLO. It doesnt matter where you were dropped off at from your slave ship. We are all black. Arent we? If so, why the outrage in the black community when she said n1gga in her song? Or do we draw the line there. Exactly where are these lines, who decides where they should be drawn?
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: wait a minute. We dont draw lines.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: or do we?
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Name:
barnone
Comment: yunvme> the "big" deal is obviously with you, being as though you r the 1 who brought the issue up. which, btw i still have yet 2 c your point and how it relates 2 the topic at hand.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: ...Herbs
I could feasibly vote for Colin Powell, provided he actually campaigned and was clear on who he was and not simply advancing the Bush agenda as he was while in his cabinet. I'd have to see more with Colin before I'd say "yes"...but far more open to it than Condi.
I respect Condi intellectually, but she offends me deeply politically.
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Name:
barnone
Comment: MO> completely overstand where ur coming from, however, don't be offended by condi. it ain't personal. acutally u have 2 feel sorry 4 someone like her.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: I didnt bring "UP" anything. I was correcting the fact that he was going to be the first BLACK president. The correction being that he would be the first bi-racial (black/white) president. Everyone else seems to have a problem with that %*$esement.
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Name:
barnone
Comment: well from his own admission he is black. i've never heard him once correct someone when referring to him as black that he is not black, but bi-racial. even when halle won the oscar no one was saying she's the first bi-racial woman to win. it was said she's the first african-american woman to win and she didn't dispute that.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: yunvme< Do you really think biracial people are specifically yearning for heroes that are biracial...I've never heard of this. Does this only apply to people that are biracial black and white? B/c I'm biracial and I see Indian people succeed and I see black people succeed...and I feel I can claim the accomplshments of both. Can you please explain this? Also, I said before that he can be BOTH the first biracial president AND the first black president. You don't think so?
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: He states clearly that his mother is white. Same with Halle. I'm talking the real deal here. The real people- not the politician or actress. They know what they are. How can you be so naive? Of course the PC thing to say is I'm BLACK cause we all know the one drop rule, and how the rest of society will view you.
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Name:
barnone
Comment: why wouldn't they clearly state that their mothers are white, they are. perhaps they say they are black b-cuz that is what they feel n their heart and identify with. perhaps this would explain why the mates these people have chosen are clearly black, not bi-racial or other b-cuz it is this blackness that they identify with.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: have you ever met another non family black/Indian person. When you find out what they are isnt there a certain kind of connectiveness. Like Hey I'm black/indian too. Much the same way black people are drawn to one another in lets say, a class room, or on the job. Thats what I was trying to explain.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: I think what it boils down to is that "black" people resent the fact that bi-racial people have a nother half and they basically want them to only embrace the black side. God forbid they embrace the white/filipino/asian/latin/indian side.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: yunvme< oh sure I get that. So basically you're saying that black people who are more than half black, should step back and let the mixed people 'have' Barack Obama?
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: SOME people. Let me make that clear.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: OK, I'm pulling rank.
I've HAD this conversation with Halle. She says she's a BLACK woman. She's bi-racial, but she characterizes herself as a BLACK woman.
Obama has characterized himself as a BLACK man.
There's no murky area here. They are bi-racial and call themselves Black...case closed.
But your original point Yunvme was that "clearly" Barack is NOT Black. He's Black...be it mulatto, quadroon, octaroon...whatever.
He's a Black man...and don't take my word for it. Take HIS.
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: I should've clarified my statment by saying that I believe I would've voted for PRE-Bush. Post-Bush is a totally different thing. He would REALLY have to show me some'n different. Condi..*sigh* I think the decisions she chose to make is a serious case study. I would love to sit and have a 1-on-1 w/her about nothing but race and how she's dealt w/it. She's a race nuetral one too....*cringing* IJA..I have given up cuz YUNV's conversation has gone, literally in too many directions. Initially, black people only accept bi-racial"ness" when they're doing good. Then it was why are we defining him as black when he's bi-racial. Then black people don't embrace mixed relationships/kids more than yt's. Black people resent mixed race people. Bi-racial kids are made to feel different by black people. We shouldn't "generalize" bi-racial blacks as blacks. Blacks had a problem w/J-lo saying n!gga. And finally, he's concerned about mixed kids having heros.... HUNH! That's why I let this part of the convo go. If he could explain when have blacks resented "bi-racial blacks" bcz they choose to embrace "both" sides of their heritages? Or better yet, cite an example of such..I would be pleased.
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Name:
barnone
Comment: yunvme> perhaps this has been your experience, therefore your frame of ref. however, i personally have not witnessed this, and therefore cannot agree. i will write, however, that most black people have a problem when not only people of mixed ethnicity,but straight up black folks, i.e. condi rice, do not embrace their african/black heritage or attempt to distance themselves from it.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: Musb< That's sort of why I want to know yunvme's background b/c we are all shaped by our experiences. So I'd be interested to know what he has experienced that has influenced his line of thinking. Now on Condi, race neutral is the nice way to say it. I think she is afraid of race b/c her parents sheltered her from so many things. Ignorance is bliss...as long as she ignores racial context she doesn't have to feel obligated to 'do something.' It's easier to say "i don't feel it's a problem" than it is to say "It's a problem but I REALLY don't want to be involved!" lol
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: black people resent biracial people that can identify with both sides. Look at Tiger. I read as much as the next person and I never got that he doesnt embrace his blackness or identify with it. Why is that? is it because of his white wife? Because none of us know him. In a perfect world yes a biracial person should embrace both sides equally. But this is not a pefect world and I'm sure there are plenty of biracial people that identify with one side more than the other. Its when they identify more with the "other side" that black people appear to have a problem. Sorry for being all over the place today. Sometimes I get like that. LoL. Its all good.
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Name:
barnone
Comment: well then perhaps u need to brush up on your reading comprehension skills.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: I dont necessarily have had to experience anything or even be biracial for that matter. I've just always been a very observant person. I study people- since I was a kid I've been like that. Thats why I know how to push buttons, and YES that is my goal sometimes.
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: and perhaps you can "fill me in" as Craig David would say.
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Name:
azure15
Comment: I'm not surprised that, fundamentally, yunvme has issues with blackness, and he's (?) projecting it onto us. OK, yunvme, let's get you some biracial heros that you can imagine having all to yourself...off the top of my head, Barack Obama, Halle Berry, Lenny Kravitz, Mariah Carey, Derek Jeter, Hines Ward. Some pretty fly, glamorous, wildly successful Americans, I would say. Now will you stop imagining that we "blacks" are tryna steal your biracial thunder? (LOL)
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: yunvme< anytime a person, like Tiger, starts talking that "why do I have to define myself?" bullsh!t you KNOW they don't want to be black and therefore wants to avoid the reality of life...a reality that most black people don't have the privelege to deny. Tiger doesn't want to embrace EITHER side of him b/c he seems to have wanted to be white ever since he was little when those white kids at his school made him feel dirty. And I would imagine that if I would have grown up in India as a half breed I wouldn't want to define myself as black b/c even to Indian people that are darker than me, I'm dirty. So if you grow up immersed in that you start wanting to not be associated with what you now perceive is something negative. I hope that makes sense. I don't know Tiger but I think I got a good theory going here.
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Name:
barnone
Comment: it is almost midnight and i'm 2 tired. goodnight 2 all. look forward to the next go round.
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: IJA...ok..ok..well I didn't wanna say that. But, since u did...I will agree. It pained me to know that she had/has a national platform and the only thing she could publicly do during the Katrina disaster (a portentous matter it was)was go to a black church. And to hear her basically say that bcz it wasn't a national security matter, she didn't get involved took, no KNOCKED the breath out of my body. And to add insult to injury was her futile attempt to gainsay what had been said about how she handled it. *UGH*
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: 'HERBS...LOL
You touched on EVERY subject covered and you didn't exaggerate. We've been way yonder around the barn.
Yunvme...
I don't believe Blacks (sweeping generalization) resent bi-racial people. I honestly believe we're a bit further along than house negro Vs. field negro.
Yes, we're still color struck...and have hang ups on hair texture...but really, who knows who is really bi-racial anymore.
There are plenty light skin, straight hair people who aren't "bi-racial" in the true sense. They're obviously mixed with something along the way, but I think it's a tremendous leap to say that Black people resent bi-racial people because #1, so many of us ARE mixed with something and #2, it ain't that serious.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: Barnone...almost Midnight? Where are you, Spain?!
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: it aint that serious....well until someone tells a little black child that they have "Good" hair. Then it becomes serious I guess. I have issues huh. HMMM. - and none of you dont?
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Name:
yunvme
Comment: good nite yall. Thanks for making my day go by fast.
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Name:
MorrisOKelly
Comment: Yunvme...I CLEARLY said, we still are color struck and have hangups about hair texture.
Those are issues we still need to address, but in today's multicultural world you can't just LOOK at someone and know if they're bi-racial or not. You just don't know.
You don't LOOK at Barack and instantly think he's mixed.
The "it ain't that serious" part is that 99% of Black folks don't care either in terms of your racial make up. They only care "if you're down" "if you embrace the Black side of you." Because when the ish goes down, they're not going to look at a bi-racial person and call them Cracker or Honky...they're gonna him/her...
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: Good article O'kelly even if we're now dealing w/lil kids being told that they have good hair and how blacks resent them. As I said earlier...blacks love when ANYONE embraces blackness and it's too many reasons why. Bill Clinton?
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Name:
azure15
Comment: I would agree that early on, yes, peeps were taken aback with Tiger with his "Cablinasian" comment, which hinted at Tiger's inability (AT THAT TIME) to process his blackness. The dude had been tied by rope to trees by racist white kids while growing up, so he couldn't be totally unaware of the situation. I would claim that Tiger has become more at ease with all parts of himself, given his celebrity crew of Michael Jordan, Charles Barkley, Shaq and Kobe, etc., and his real efforts to introduce kids of color to golf. I'd also claim that our community has matured, and is now content to let Tiger be, Swedish wife and all. We just bask in his golfing genius, as shown by our presence in his huge, diverse galleries.
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Name:
ImJustAsking
Comment: Oh hell no. Get yo' biracial azz back in here yunvme. B/c once again this conversation makes me swear that a couple years back you were posting as a woman and saying you were light skinnded and other women hated you for it. Come back. Come back.
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Name:
azure15
Comment: It's clear that yunvme came in here to start shyt, to attack with these inflamatory, insulting generalizations, e.g., "Blacks are the first to separate themselves from biracials," etc. yunvme never had an answer for the fact that Obama acknowledges being black, or that in the "taxi test" or "cop test", he'd be considered black by OTHERS.
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: Although the day has ended, I ran across an article that also deals w/what I said earlier about are WE ready for a black president. It deals w/two black political leaders who have decided to back Clinton...after receiving overtures from Obama. I wish I had brought up this "obstacle" as well but w/all the discussion on the bi-racial stuff I forgot. COLUMBIA, S.C. - Two key black political leaders in South Carolina who backed John Edwards in 2004 said Tuesday they are supporting Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's bid for the Democratic presidential nomination.
State Sens. Robert Ford and Darrell Jackson told The Associated Press they believe Clinton is the only Democrat who can win the presidency. Both said they had been courted by Illinois Sen. Barack Obama; Ford said Obama winning the primary would drag down the rest of the party.
"It's a slim possibility for him to get the nomination, but then everybody else is doomed," Ford said. "Every Democrat running on that ticket next year would lose - because he's black and he's top of the ticket. We'd lose the House and the Senate and the governors and everything."
"I'm a gambling man. I love Obama," Ford said. "But I'm not going to kill myself." http://www.examiner.com/a-563986~2_S_C__Black_Leaders_ Back_Sen__Clinton.html
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: These are the statements that gets the media going and which "regular" people end up believing. *hanging head in complete disgust*
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Name:
rikyrah
Comment: musbdherbs, it's this kind of ignorance that drives me up a wall. Barack Obama will be a drag on the ticket? That is their 'assumption'. Well, I have a FACTUAL poll on HIllary Clinton. 48% of the American people say they will NEVER vote for her. And, they mean NEVER.
Now, how the hell do you win when 48% of the people have already decided that they will NOT vote for her? Riddle me that? I keep on asking people to tell me how Hillary WINS any state that they say Barack LOSES. Because, I've not heard one explanation on that part.
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Name:
xavixavi
Comment: Mo,
I'm not sure that Tiger isn't being/claiming black.
Some parents of biracials try to truly merge both cultures into their children.
Tiger has claimed that saying he is black denies his mother.
I've taken him at his word.
He and many biracials truly try 2 be all things to all, but looking black makes this impossible for them.
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