Mon, Nov 23, 2009
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Name:
McNasty
Comment: It does no earthly good to keep calling out pastor's you don't agree with - it does make sense to work hard to be a better more serving pastor than those you complain about. That is solely within your power.
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Name:
PastorMarc
Comment: Well said. Does no good, and it's not Biblical either. Go talk to a brother if you feel that strongly about it. And deal with that plank in your own eye before you go. Reminds me of one of Bishop Jakes' messages about those who 'sit' out in dining area (sanctuary) and enjoy the 'meal' being served (worship service), who, if they had a clue about what goes on in the 'kitchen'...no this brother doesn't have a clue.
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Name:
Dovelyone
Comment: I agree with what has been said in terms of this guy REDIRECTING his energies to pray for these pastors and do the work that will be more conducive to serving the Body of Christ. HOWEVER, I thought it was VERY INTERESTING that Streaming Faith took the action it did based on not wanting to LOSE BUSINESS/MONEY.... What's wrong with having a diverse range of opinions/presentations on one site, even if such opinions are critical? I mean, I haven't seen Reuben's film but is it just his opinion or does he have evidence or some reasonable approach for saying what he's putting forth in the film? StreamingFaith's actions are more disturbing here to me....
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Name:
WillyBobo
Comment: none of these men are above criticism....these men should be called out if they are using people for their own gain....the fact that they went and put the full court press on Streaming Faith says a whoooooooole lot.....my father used to say that a hit dog will holler the loudest....hmmmm
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Name:
Sexee
Comment: PastorMarc ~ I totally disagree with you. Everyone in the body has a specific function, so whether you are the eye or the toe you are doing your part. When we sit by and co-sign to things that are not biblical than we are no better than the rest. However, if he has presented his offence with two to three witnesses and was rebuked for standing on the WORD than it's a problem. So many want your tithes & offerings but will not or are unable to answers questions.
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Name:
Sexee
Comment: I feel that is the main reason we have so many men that do not want to be in the church and we have so many christians that talk faith but don't walk in it.
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Name:
WillyBobo
Comment: Cosign Sexee..1 Timothy 5:20...these jokers act like they are about reproach......
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Name:
Sexee
Comment: Wily ~ that is why it's so important that the congregation study and continue to hold them accountable. Not because they are trying to hold them back but because were trying to keep them on the straight and narrow. It's two perspectives.
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Name:
Dovelyone
Comment: Sexee: I understand what you're saying but the PROPER way to hold the leader accountable is to go to the LEADER's LEADER: and that is GOD! How does the child CORRECT the parent? How does the sheep know what to do? If that was the case, there would be NO NEED for a shepherd? I'm not saying that sheep/people need to go blindly because we're supposed to know who labors among us, but at the same time, we're to respect WHOM the LORD appointed.... And if somebody is in a church where they're not sure if the pastor has been APPOINTED BY GOD, then they had better start praying real quick about which way to go and what to do... which could mean go somewhere else or stay and pray for that pastor. It's takes MORE FAITH to stay and pray when things don't look like they're supposed to....
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Name:
WillyBobo
Comment: We dont want to rebuke anyone anymore...or I should say we rebuke the wrong people(ie people who aren't saved etc)..these preachers are men who are subject to the same failings that we are....The fact of the matter is we are all accountable to each other as Christians and if I see you in error(according to the Bible not tradition), it is my duty to correct you..Everyone always tries to quote "Touch not mine anointed and do my prophet no harm" when it comes to speaking against the men of God...just another way to try and keep the people in bondage...
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Name:
cookyd
Comment: That is too bad this happened to him, I am sure a lot of people are very angry with him because he has written a book that has put some of the big name preachers in the hot seat, hey this is America we can do that kinda of stuff --but you wonder is the radio station afraid that they are going to loose money if they have him on the air? Or did those big name preachers pressure the station to drop him?
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Name:
Dovelyone
Comment: Willy: Please provide specific scripture regarding CORRECTION in the Body of Christ. CORRECTION comes from AUTHORITY.... We as FELLOW BELIEVERS are to WARN, ADMONISH each other to live and do soberly according to our faith, but when CORRECTION is necessary (FOR EVERYBODY) that has to be administered according to proper authority. Also, the Bible says that we are to RESTORE slowly after one has come into a place to receive and walk in that correction.
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Name:
Gurlfrand
Comment: I agree with you, Dovelyone 100% - if you have a problem with the Ministers in question, go talk to them, don't write ugly books about them and not expect to be called on the carpet about it - what kind of fellowship is that with another brother in the faith? - like Malcolm once said, "not every brother is righteous."
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Name:
Sexee
Comment: Dovelyone ~ GOD gives us his word and authority to stand. 1 Timothy 5:19 Do not receive an accusation against an elder except on the basis of two or three witnesses. Everything is established by 2-3 witnesses. We have the authority.
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Name:
Sexee
Comment: Matt 18:15-16
If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
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Name:
Sexee
Comment: WillyBobo ~ you are absolutely right. Most want absolute control in what they do.. To follow the blind, but have no word in them.
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Name:
Dovelyone
Comment: Sexee: EXACTLY... according to these scriptures you mentioned, there are several points to consider: are ELDERS and BROTHERS on the same level of AUTHORITY? Who is AUTHORIZED to rebuke LEADERSHIP? Notice I did not say QUESTION, but REBUKE, CORRECT? Also, I find it interesting that you did not note 1 Timothy 5:1, which says " 1Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;" so in the SAME CHAPTER, the term "elder" is being used as both "older man", "leader", and father". It appears this range of reference leaves room to question where PROPER REBUKE ORIGINATES. And BOTH scriptures you mentioned (1 Tim 5:19 and Matt 18:15-16) make note to not even ENTERTAIN an accusation unless/until it is established by 2-3 witnesses. Where are the witnesses against these folk? I mean, folk are accusing individually, but how come they do not unite for their cause?
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Name:
HarrisThomas
Comment: major serious wow . . . the book's author and the pastors under fire in the book are role models for their congregations and beyond: by their actions, what encouragement do these pastors give to lay people who may have their behaviors questioned? . . . how do we lay people know which of them is used by God for cleaning up the messes that truly do exist throughout the various church communities . . . based on this article, bling rules
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Name:
Dovelyone
Comment: HT: You asked "do we lay people know which of them is used by God for cleaning up the messes that truly do exist throughout the various church communities". I respond to your question with two points: 1) how do we know if a person is being used by GOD? THEIR FRUIT. What is happening by their involvement? Good or bad? Fruitful or unfruitful? Productive or destructive? Are lives being changed for the better or worse? 2) You mentioned "cleaning up the messes". The overall assignment of any person of God is to MINISTER the GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST. This MINISTRY can happen in a variety of ways...that's why there is a DIVERSITY of GIFTS in the body. Everybody can't do everything. We are each called to do our part. But if we avoid doing our part because we're DISTRACTED BY WHAT SOMEONE ELSE IS OR IS NOT DOING, then where's the FRUIT in that? Again, I'm not saying that we are to be blind because we're to know who labors among us and we're to pray for one another. I am not necessarily saying that this person should not have written this book. What I am saying is that if such a book is to be written, then just STICK TO THE FACTS and let the PERSON DECIDE what they will do with those facts. Facts don't have to be laced with innuendo or speculation or spin.
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Name:
MissE
Comment: Got a question. Has anyone taken the time to visit this Rueben Armstrong's website? Do you know who he is, what he's about? Well I did. He calls himself and "ex-minister." How in the world can one become an "ex" minister? Did God "uncall" or "unchoose" you? Just by the fact he calls himself that says a whole lot to me, and that is, you can take anything he says with a grain of salt.
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Name:
Sexee
Comment: Dovelyone ~ We would first have to establish what is an elder. From my Bible Dictionary Elders have various meanings. In the O.T. it was used to refer to older men in the tribe. (ex Gen 50:7, Rute 4:2 Matt 15:2 & Acts 4:5)
There were Ordained elders in the Melchizedek Preisthood in O.T. times as in Ex. 24::9-11 & Num 11:16.
In the N.T. elders are mentioned as priesthood offices in the church (ex. Acts 14:23; 1 tTim. 5 1, 17, 19; James 5: 14-15)
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Name:
MissE
Comment: cosign, dovelyone
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Name:
Sexee
Comment: so for the sake of this topic we will use the meaning in the N.T. elders holding the priesthood offices in the church.
We must now examine what Authority we have as believers.
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Name:
McNasty
Comment: DovelyOne good post - there is a way to go about it and it begins with a few invitations. MissE the fact that he would put in a book what he neglected to say face to face let me know not to waste any of my time trying to figure out if he had a leg to stand on. Yes the pimps in the pulpit should be called out but not if you're not willing to stand toe to toe with them and only if members of the congretation spearhead the effort. The rest of us should mind our own p's and q's. Most of us that think for ourselves know exactly who to steer clear of because we know they are where they are for the wrong reason. Calling them out from the wrong place only gets you shut down!
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Name:
Sexee
Comment: In Acts 4 when peter & john were arrested and brought before the council (sadducces
)wanted to silence them. However in Acts 4:19 ...Whether it be right in the sight of GOD to hearken unto you more than unto GOD, judge ye.
They took authority of the situation and listen to the unction that GOD gave them and rebuked
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Name:
Sexee
Comment: Sorry my boss has been in & out of my office so I will finish my thoughts shortly once she leaves. :(
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Name:
MissE
Comment: you're right mcnasty. like you said in the first post, it does no good. if they are snakes, they'll soon be cut down to wither. if they are using their parishoners money to get rich, that's on them, they'll have to answere to God for that and not the person that's giving it.
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: Did anyone stop to talk to hip-hop artists...David Banner? Nope! We just fast foward to calling them everything but a child of god.
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Name:
queeniebunz
Comment: I look at it like this - the people under these men have choices. They CHOOSE to give away their money. That is between them, the church/pastor/ and God. I just choose not to give money to organizations that don't move me. That way I don't feel victimized/exploited/conned. This guy is trying to sell a book. He is no different from the video vixen or the chick who stole people's credit cards and went to jail and then wrote a book. They are trying to get rich off the book - all of them. I wouldn't read a word of any of them because I don't expose my spirit to everything people write, especially shady stuff. That is what people have to keep in perspective - he is selling a book. Remember that and be done w/him.
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Name:
Dovelyone
Comment: Sexee: The Acts 4 reference is misapplied here for at least TWO reasons: 1) the Sadducees were NOT appointed to lead the CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST. Jesus didn't ask or APPOINT any Sadducee to preach for Him. IN FACT, verse 18 of Acts 4 shows that the Sadducees wanted to PREVENT the gospel from being preached, which brings me to 2) What were Peter and John doing WRONG according to the GOSPEL of Jesus Christ? Peter and John were ON THEIR GOD-GIVEN ASSIGNMENT to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. Peter and John WERE DISCIPLES of Jesus Christ so they WERE DEFINITELY APPOINTED and they were walking in OBEDIENCE. And another point: if you read the following verses, we have evident of SPIRITUAL FRUIT: when Peter and John did their work, the man that they were praying for WAS MIRACULOUSLY HEALED and the people were praising God for that...and the sadduccess had to release Peter and John from capture.
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Name:
Dovelyone
Comment: And here's an easier way to walk into the topic of a person's authority to REBUKE A LEADER: give a NEW TESTAMENT example of such a thing happening. Since you said you wanted to use the New Testament definition of an "elder", then that seems fitting to call for a New Testament example of a laymember rebuking a leader. One example of a LEADER getting REBUKED by a FELLOW LEADER is in Galatians 2:11-21: APOSTLE Paul corrected APOSTLE Peter for his conduct in an eating situation. Correction occured in PROPER AUTHORITY.
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Name:
MomaKnowz
Comment: Bottom line: We have here an author that few have ever heard of. What better way to sell a book than to write a controversial piece on people that *are* well known and then seek publicity for that piece in their own backyard? From a businessperson's perspective, if I found out that my enemy was besmurching my character and I had pull because of our viewership, I'd use my influence to rid myself of my enemy. It's called "making the phone call" The author forgot that the sword is two-edged and cuts both ways. But did the author really expect these people to sit silently while he goes wild with "alleged" offenses? It seems to me that the author is no different. He seeks to profit from the sale of the book. It's the pot callin' the kettle... Lastly, God hasn't fallen off of the throne. He has a way of reckoning things. I watched sadly as Tammy Faye withered away and then slipped from us. Only the totally unfeeling among us found her end to be funny... Ironic, yes. Funny? No. - My point: "Let the wheat and the tares grow together. In the end, ***God*** will do the separating"
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Name:
cornbread
Comment: IT'S ALL ABOUT MONEY. EVERYBODY WANTS TO BE A PREACHER THESE DAYS JUST LIKE THEY WANT TO BE RAPPERS, BASKETBALL PLAYERS, AND FOOTBALL PLAYERS. IT'S A GOOD HUSTLE AND YOU MAKE PLENTY OF MONEY. THIS GUY IS OUT TO CASH IN ON THE PREACHER PHENOMENON. PIMPS UP HO'S DOWN. GET MONEY BIITCHEZ!!
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Name:
csilas
Comment: RE: Snakes in the pulpit
John 8:7 He that is WITHOUT SIN among you, let him first cast a stone.
Matthew 13:30 - Let the wheat and tares grow together until the harvest; and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
Galatians 6:1 - If a man be overtaken in fault, ye which are SPIRITUAL, RESTORE such an one in the spirit of MEEKNESS; considering thyself lest thou also be tempted.
Thought to Remember:
It is better to steer completely clear of the comparison game. Any attempt to better ourselves at the mercy of someone else's failure will always bring a twisted view of us and others.
In His Care,
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