Sun, Nov 22, 2009
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Name:
McNasty
Comment: I still can't believe the number of people voting for clinton simply because she is a woman and/or because they don't believe Obama can win! I also don't believe the number of folk thinking ole hillary can lead us to the promised land!
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Name:
DoctorSmooth
Comment: McNasty, theres another aspect to it too. I definitely think the Bill Clinton connection is a major factor here. Black America has much love for Bill Clinton, so as his wife, she's going to get a lot of that love too. He is, after all, America's so called "first black president".And if she gets in the White House, you better Bill will be there too,in some capacity.
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Name:
Kofi
Comment: Obama is just being too goddayumed nice. He needs to expose who Hilary really is a right wing co-dependent/apologist. Hilary went right along with the neocns and the war. She went along with the bankruptcy bill that esssentially puts people into indentured servitude. Obama needs to expose Hilary on going along with gross violations of the Geneva Conventions and the indefinite imprisonment of people in Guntanimo, wire tapping phones,the right to due process, etc. Obama really needs to propose a Marshal type plan for suviors of Katrina as opposed to a welfare plan for rich white developers. In short Obama needs to stand up and be a strong black man and show these folks who and what he is made of!!!
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Name:
khufu
Comment: hmmm...
1) Black folks are primarily supporting Clinton because of her hubby.
A lot of "Black" opinion leaders support her Clinton because they owe him Clinton. Political favors & Loyalty.
2) A lot of others are supporting her because they feel that Obama cant win nationally against a Republican in America where the majority voters are white and arent willing to support a Black presidential candidate.
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Name:
DoctorSmooth
Comment: Kofi.... Hillary is a calculating politician. The election will be won in the political center. Thats just the way it is. If she moves over too far to the left, she'll allow Guiliani to take the center and win in 08.
I believe fully she is a leftist/socialist in many ways, but she's calculated that she needs to appear "moderate", so that the Republicans wont paint her as a far left kook. By distancing herself from the hard left, she'll appeal more to mainstream America and have her best chance to win.
And I'm not even a Hillary fan at all. But I think she's a clever political strategist. Besides, you know she's listening to her husband Bill in the background, giving her tips on how to win this thing.
Most of American prefers centrist candidates. Thats why Obama is also trying to moderate his tone. He's smart enought to know that hard-right, or hard-left candidates will never win a national election. Hillary figured that out a long time ago. Barack is an ultra-liberal himself, and if he were to win the Democrat nomination, the Republicans would murder him in their campaign ads. Like them or not, the Rethuglicans know how to go for the jugular in an election.
I'm not a fan, but I'd much rather see her in office than him. On foreign policy in particula, she's a lot deeper than he is. Barack is a little too green and too idealistic to lead this country in this dangerous world we live in. We dont need a softie in the white house.
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Name:
khufu
Comment: Kofi I agree...in order for Obama to gain, he would have to be nastier in attacking her Clinton and him Clinton.
He would have to neutralize the him Clinton factor..the myth that is Bill Clinton.
That is tantamount to political suicide.
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Name:
khufu
Comment: KOFI the problem, as you know, is the more Black he becomes the more white folks will distance himself.....
the american dilemma for the Black politician
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Name:
khufu
Comment: will distance themselves
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Name:
McNasty
Comment: DoctorSmooth which is even more of a shame because if you've watched her - there is no way in hell she's gonna let billy boy anywhere near the oval office. She is like a rabid dog over this election and is likely to bite off a vital part if he interjects himself too much in her position. I realize there are those that think we'll get him back but they need to realize hillary has another plan for him and it ain't the white house!
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Name:
DoctorSmooth
Comment: McNasty...I think Bill will campaign with her for sure. He still gets a lot of love, so he'll be a big factor in turning out the vote for the Dems.
But as far as the white house, I think Hillary will want to show the world that she's her own woman, and not under Bill's influence. I can see her giving him some kind of high profile assignment (like UN Amb%*$ador) to keep him out of the way.
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Name:
FiveMore
Comment: Hillary Clinton will be America's first female president.Are you all ready for her?"They" are constantly pushing her far above the crowd.Will Obama(is he her running mate? i believe so...) become her running mate?The(Dems) will not split the black vote apart.Hillary/Obama in 2008! Watch and see!
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Name:
Kofi
Comment: A tragic mistake the Dems seem to make time and time again is to be Republican lite. Dems cannot out Republican the Republicans. Fuckk the religious right ahd the so-called swing voters. They are looking for any excuse to vote rightwing anyway. As for Obama not having the forigen policy experience, just look at who we have now. W needs a world history for dummies. He has clearly demonstrated a total lack of expertise as evidenced by this insane war we are engaged in. Dems need to get out of the liberal right left dichotomy. 47 million without healthcare is neither liberal or conservative. Outsourcing jobs overseas is something the Dems should be against. Obama should speak up on the dismantling of the Constitution (ie, 4th, 5th and 8th admendment against cruel and unsual punishment) That is neither left or right that is American. We need not forget that Bill Clinton put policies in place that locked 1million black men and women. He started NAFTA which drives down wages for everyone.
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Name:
khufu
Comment: In agreemwnt with you KOFI however the dilemma is centered around what you said:
"That is neither left or right that is American."
we are in the midst of a fight for America's "soul"
America is being re-defined and transformed and there are those who are going along with it and supporting it and others who are fighting it....
there are those who want the transformation to be one way and there are others who want it to be another way...
this presidential race is one that raises the questions:
what is America?
WHat should America be?
What must it be?
Who shall decide?
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Name:
DoctorSmooth
Comment: Kofi... Interesting post. Remember though, that the Democrats didnt oppose NAFTA when Bill Clinton brought it to us in the 90's, and even now they dont complain much about it,even though its cost a lot of American jobs. And the loss of many jobs to India and many 3rd world countries started in the 90's when Bill was president. Even if the Clinton or Obama take over after 2008, the train of globalization has already left the station.And its not coming back.
Its not even a right/left thing. Its a reality thing, a fact created by globalization. So I dont see it changing no matter who's in office. Even this morning I called my cable company's tech suport line, and the representative was in the Phillipines!! I was like Wow, another American job lost. Big business is like, "why pay an American $12/hr when we can pay someone in Asia $2 for the same thing?" Not saying its right, but thats the direction things are going now.
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Name:
DoctorSmooth
Comment: Fivemore... I wouldnt start getting Hillary measured for her crown just yet. Al Gore and the Democrats "should have" won in 2000 right? but they didnt. And John Kerry should have won in 2004. but he didnt. So now its the same thing . Hillary looks like she "should win" in 2008. But the democrats have shown an amazing ability to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
I'm not convinced this is a slam dunk for Hillary. I think she'd easily beat Fred Thompson or Mitt Romney... but I think this Giuliani guy could be kryptonite to her campaign. I've observed them both for years now, and I think Giuliani is going to be stronger than most people think. This could become a political version of Mike Tyson vs. Buster Douglas. And we all remember how that fight turned out.
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Name:
FiveMore
Comment: Dr.Smooth>I got a feelin' that this is Hilareee season.Cause a whole slew of people are pushing her!( Even the "tyrant of Media"Rupert Murdoch has secretly supported HILL and many other people.Why did Magic and Oprah have competing functions for the two candidates?Will the Democrats allow another election snafu to occur under their vigilent and watchful eye?I hope not.
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Name:
Gurlfrand
Comment: >DoctorSmooth - I don't understand the "great love to Bill Clinton" that AA has for him - I don't get why so much love for him - what did he do for them - I must have missed something during his two terms! Why would people vote for Hilary based on some kind of affection for the ex-president? I really don't get that. I think she's a strong woman, but still need to understand more about her vision for the country, as well as Obama.
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Name:
DoctorSmooth
Comment: Gurlfrand... to his credit Bill is the first president who would really hang with black folk and seem genuinely comfortable. With most white politicians on that level, it seemed they gave us varying levels of respect, but when Bill showed up at black events and hung with us, we got the feeling like "this white boy is really down with the our people". I guess thats where this "America's first black president" nickname came from.
But you're right, its mostly perception, moreso than reality. Yes, Bill has respect for black folk,but what has he really done for us specifically? I cant tell you. On the other hand, it was on Bill's watch that 800,000 blacks died in Rwanda, partly because we didnt step in. As a matter of fact, the UN security council was ready to vote to send UN peacekeepers, but Bill asked Madeline Albright to veto the resolution on America's behalf. Based on the veto, no peacekeepers were sent, and the world was unable to prevent/stop one of the biggest genocides in Africa's history. I'm amazed how many black folk I talk to dont know or dont remember about that. Now... if it was Bush who had done the same thing and 800,000 blacks died, do you think the reaction in the black community here would have been the same? (rhetorical question of course)
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Name:
Calidee
Comment: Wow,
Black people actually have a different opinion about who should be President. Who'da thunk it :0
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Name:
DoctorSmooth
Comment: Calidee... (Ahem)...are you trying to imply that black people seem to have a pack mentality when it comes to politics, and vote like 90% for a particular party? And that black people, who love the idea of "diversity" tend not not very diverse when it comes to political thought among our own? Hmmm. Why would anyone think that??
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Name:
Gurlfrand
Comment: That is astounding to me, DoctorSmooth, because in all of my professional associations, since Bill Clinton left office, I have never ONCE heard any of my collegues or friends of color say how much they admired Bill Clinton or talked about his accomplishments for black americans - I always thought it was some comedy gag about him being the first black president, and still never understood why he became so beloved by black people - never heard any Arkansenians talk fondly of him either (my parents are from Arkansas)not once! He was a good worker, and was probably on his way to accomplishing some great things, but, his "problems in the flesh" deterred that, then, he lied to the American people over and over again about his infidelities when asked about them - but, you may be right on some level, because he wrote a book a few years ago and received a huge paycheck from it - just goes to show you we live in a time where evil is rewarded hand$omely! I have to really think about voting for Hilary - I wish there were other options - I kind of wish the Clinton's would disappear, but, since HC has such aspirations to be president, guess she's not going away - her and Bill knew the destiny they were on when they became political partners in marriage - so, she accepted the good with the bad.....
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Name:
McNasty
Comment: Gurlfrand she not only accepted the good with the bad, she fed herself slowly off the total madness of their situation. I have always believed that their marriage was nothing more than a political deal that would get him the presidency first and then her, nothing more nothing less. There is forgiveness and then there is forgiveness with a caveat and for the life of me Hillary has stood by from before day one cause stories of him being an infidel followed him up out of Arkansas and at some point she should have had enough pride and self esteem to literally walk away - she didn't! However staying in a bad situation and saying what you think folk will fall for do not a good presient make!
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Name:
McNasty
Comment: DoctorSmooth after ole bill signed the nafta deal and then commenced to ignore the situation in rwanda I took a few steps back but I, like you, don't understand black appeal for him. If it's that he can eat 'cue with the best of them we really are a bunch of cheap dates.
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Name:
Calidee
Comment: Well Doctor Smooth
I wasn't trying to imply that black people have a pack mentality but rather that people seemed surprised that we are not automatically voting for Barack Obama. It's as we people believe that black people think alike. But I will say this, if the Republicans had a good candidate and blacks refused to support him/her simply because he/she was a republican then I would say that we have a pack mentality
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Name:
DEEofVA
Comment: Gurlfrand,
I appreciate Doctor Smooth illuminating one of the biggest humanitarian/foreign policy failures of our generation as an example of some of the failures of the Clinton Administration, but one doesn’t need to look beyond our shores to find a laundry list of %*$aults on the Black community from "our friend" Bill Clinton. One need only look at the incarceration statistics. During the Clinton Administration, more Black men were incarcerated than the two previous Republican administrations--COMBINED--as a direct result of Clinton's veto of his own sentencing commission’s recommendation to end the disparity between crack and power cocaine. It was the first time in modern history that a president refused to follow the guidelines of his own commission. Negroes who praise Bill Clinton because he had a penchant for fried food, Black music and plump White women, fail to recognize the devastating effects his policies had on the Black community. It was under the Clinton Administration that the Omnibus crime bill was passed, which lead to draconian measures like 3 strikes laws; rape shield laws which has made it incredibly easy to convict poor men, mostly Black, of rape and sexual %*$ault; truth in sentencing laws which exponentially increased the length of average sentences; and the advent of the industrial prison complex. When Black folks talk about Bill Clinton's friends, they only mention the likes of Vernon Jordan and Bob Johnson, but they never talk about William Fulbright. William Fulbright was a famed AR politician and Bill Clinton's mentor who often accompanied him often on the campaign trail. Fulbright’s most notable life achievement was that he was a life-long segregationist. Funny how Black folks who love this red-neck so much conveniently never mention those FACTS.
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Name:
Gurlfrand
Comment: ...shakin' my head. As PE used to say "Don't Believe the Hype."
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Name:
DoctorSmooth
Comment: Calidee>>> For some of our people, there is no such thing as a "good republican candidate". You may not wish to call it a pack mentality, but to me, when a race votes 90+ percent for a single party (like we did in 2000 and 2004) , I dont know what else to call it. No other race or ethnic group in America votes 90% for any party. Also, look at how often Black Repupblicans have been criticized and called sellouts by fellow blacks just for BEING Republican. If Jesus Christ himself were to run on the Republican ticket,some black folk would not vote for him simply because of the (R) beside his name. (a slight exxageration perhaps, but... you know what I mean).
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Name:
DoctorSmooth
Comment: DEEofVA ..... Gotta hand it to you. That is one of the most enlightening posts I've seen on this board in a long time. (I'm going to have to borrow some of that stuff for my political "talking points" in the future.) I hope you continue to post comments often. We need people like you to counteract some of the buffoons who post their foolishness on this website on the regular. I'm no apologist for the Rethuglicans. Lord knows they have major faults too. But it just irriatates me when I see black people give Democratic politicians a free psss for policies they've instituted over the years which have hurt our the black community so badly.
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Name:
MER82
Comment: All good posts but don't forget when mentioning Bill C.-he also had a strong republican congress to contend with most of the time he was in office. Which is part of what is wrong with the voting system in this country. Half of the time he couldn't get a lot done because they strong-armed him at every turn. And don't forget Newt and the gang...long before Cheney came down the pipeline.
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: Gurlfrand...as a follower of politics, it is well-known that black people liked Bill Clinton because he was "down with us." It had/has little to do with policies he instituted that were to the benefit of black folk. He loved bbq chicken, aretha franklin was one of his favs, was good friend was Vernon jordan and can sit down at the table of blackness w/the best of 'em. Cali, assuming that you mean yt folk, they are not surprised. They saw in the last election that we don't automatically vote black. They know that. They are just good at convincing us that there is something wrong with it. Have you witnessed any non-black people going after conservatives for looking for the "true conservative" So, yt people can vote in blocks but blacks are made to feel unamerican for doing the same. Ya'll betta recognize and stop listening to yt folk. DVA...now ain't that the truth. Black people still mad about Jessie having a child out of wedlock and Al for Tawanna Brawley. But, Clinton got head in the most disgraceful way and we embrace his adulterous azz. Yeah?
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Name:
DoctorSmooth
Comment: And DEEofVA... to piggyback off your comment, I've often thought that the 3 Strike laws are unconscionable, even inhumane. So youre telling me Tyrone might steal a car, and break into 2 liquor stores, and those 3 (non-violent)felonies could put him in prison for life ? Considering that it costs roughly $30,000 per year to incarcerate a prisoner, imagine if Tryone was 22 when he commited his first felony, and had to sit out the next 60 years or so of his life in prison... is it a wise use of taxpayer dollars to spend $1.8 million dollars to keep him locked up for that? And trust me, there are thousands of "Tyrones" like that all across America. I wish we as black America would use this same energy we exerted in the Jena 6 case, and use it now to lobby for repeal of these "3 Strikes" laws nationwide.
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: Doc..that would require foresight...something that black folk have only so much of. Yes, there are Jena's everyday. But, as w/anything else in america...it only becomes an issue when the story gets press coverage. Although I will say, I'm pleased w/we did in Jena simply because it really started at the bottom last year when there was no media coverage. It was grassroots at it's best. I liked that.
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Name:
DoctorSmooth
Comment: MUSB... all this energy black folk have expended over "reparations" over the years... If we had spent that energy on repealing 3 Strikes laws, we as a community would have been better off for it, especially so many of our kids who never grew up with their dad cuz he got a life sentence for jail for selling rocks. And while I'm on that topic, why is it that white people rarely if ever get life sentences for meth, even though meth is to the white trash community what crack was to the 'hood back in the day?? Billy Joe could get caught running a whole meth lab and get 10 years, while Daequan might get life for having a pocketful of crack vials in the hood. Wheres the justice n that?? And where is the black leadership on this issue?? Lawdamercy.. dont even get me started up in here!! I'm out.
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