Mon, Nov 23, 2009
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Name:
fanteeking
Comment: Someone should write a masters thesis or a doctoral dissertation on Howard University and the color line (As DuBois defined it) As a very young kid, I remember going to my sister's graduation in the 1960's and being surprised by how the light skin/dark skin thing was alive and kickin'. All the queens, be they football, basketball, fraternity and sorority looked like off-colored white girls. The AKA sorority were lighter skinned, thinner nosed, a more blow haired than the deltas. Dark skinned ladies were just in the way. I was a precocious kid who had just read, "The Black Bourgeosie" by Dr. E. Franklin Frazier who was a world reknown sociologist from Howard Univ. and this made this book come to life right in front of me. 'Till this day, my Howard Univ. sister prefers light skinned Howard alums over the darker ones. The kicker is that me and my daddy is dark skinned. LOL!! Does any virginia posters out there know the name of a book that talks about the Proctor family? They were slaves who inter-married for generations to maintain their white features and have an advantage in white Amerikkka.
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: There have been a study on
HU and the color thing. I'm sure that someone had to have done a thesis by now. Maybe EUR wanted to get this article some attention. But, why have a headline about light skin vs. dark, and focus on obama and soledad..two differently mixed race black folk like Elizabeth. Maybe Ian is supposed to represent the dark side. Well no, Bintell is the darker of them all.
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: FT I know one of the descendants of the proctor family and I'll ask him.
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Name:
Kulchaman
Comment: Lightskin vs Darkskin, should not be a such thing, we are Black, we breed different shades...must be a malign person to even come with this topic on Sunday's show.
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Name:
fanteeking
Comment: Musbherbs: Be careful how you approach this descendant because I heard some are ashamed of their slave past. I read this book med. genetics about how all these recessive Proctor genes caused this Proctor klan to have many genetic disorders. Insanity, polydactyl (multi-fingers), blindness, etc. I'm not making fun of this situation, I just wanna read that book again. A few folks (old descendants) impacted so many subsequent generations. So unfortunate.
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Name:
McNasty
Comment: Fanteeking I grew up with some proctor's, some savoy's and some chevalier's and even got a chance to gawk at what they called 'sugar hill', the area where they all lived. There is a lot to be said for these people because while they were keeping the skin color they spent their lives nursing the wrecked. Some with no eyelids, some with no necks - a whole lot of them retarded. But they wanted to keep that skin color!
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: FT, he jokes about it and says that's why so many of them are crazy. He does realize that many of his relatives are ashamed and will carry that family secret to their death. Kulcha, not sure what country you live in but the lightskin vs. darskin thing is definately still a problem here in the us. Still.
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Name:
mydchomegirl
Comment: >fanteeking...The Black Caucus did a forum about the Light vs. Dark issue in September during the CBC Conference in D.C. and it was awesome! The light skinned sisters were talking about how they are tired of people thinking that they are not black enough and so some have chose to wear naturals, etc. to try to fit in. The Dark Skinned sisters were tired of being referred to as "being good lookin to be dark" and having to work harder at everything in order to be accepted. I am a Howard Alum and was there in the 80's and was amazed that the Light vs. Dark issue is still in
full force. We have to first love ourselves and the skin that God gave us and people will treat you based on how you treat yourself. I remember being in the 3rd grade and two of my classmates telling me how I would look much better if I was lighter. I may not ever forget them saying it but it does not define who I am. I am sure if we all had a choice of what completion we wanted to be it would be a boring world. God is the author and the finisher of us all... If you want to know more about Howard, D.C. and the color issue I recommend a book called "The Paper Bag Test". God Bless You and especially your sister!
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Name:
DCGG
Comment: I'm so sick of this shyt...black folks get on my mutherfuvkin nerves...just another platform to show the world just how fuvked up in the head we are as a people...
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Name:
fanteeking
Comment: mydchomegirl: The sad thang about my sister is that many of the light-skinned folks she tried to ingratiate herself with in the 60's have realized that the only reason why she caters to them is because they have light skin. Many of them are proud, African-Americans who ain't hung up about color and now they have kicked her to the curb. I remember her making fun of a dark skinned, VERY poor girl in our neighborhood named B. W. She was poor, poor with ragedy clothes etc. My sister would use her name as a metaphor for being dark, poor, uneducated etc. For example, she say, "Yeah, girl he went to Meharry and got that medical degree but he'll end up marrying somebody like B. W.!!! Ha! Ha! Giggle! Giggle! Anyway, at my Mother's funeral two Xmases ago, I took B. W. by the hand and took her to my sister to show her how God blesses the misfortunate ones. B. W. looks 10X better than my sister, has a nice, supportive husband and great kids and her own crib. My sisters kids didn't do as well as she'd like to brag about. All her light-skinned Howard friends have deserted her and now she sits at home as a big fatt, azzed bourgeois piggy! I feel sorry for her.
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Name:
fanteeking
Comment: McNasty: Were they living in sugar hill in Harlem? I heard so much about them Proctors especailly when I wuz studyin' medical genetics. Researchers had difficulty trying to interview them because of their notoriety. I feel bad for the Proctors who didn't have a damn thang to do with that non-sensical thinking, but still suffer genetically!!
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Name:
HarrisThomas
Comment: in 21st century America, there are AAs who praise "good hair" and light skin . . . the BET forum like the CBC forum is not being convened to show that we are fvcked up, it is shining a spotlight on a very major concern . . . high school and college students are continuously doing sociological experiment where a young AA child is asked to select the bad doll from a pair of black and white dolls: usually, the black doll is selected as bad . . . yeah, we got issues
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: FT, that's why I don't play that color thing w/family or friends. I had a gf once who told me, b4 I ever met her family (mother, sisters, aunts and grandmother/father) that they were colorstruck. I warned her from the jump that she shouldn't bring them to my house w/that bullshyt and I wouldn't go to theirs. After about two years, I went over for Easter Dinner. It was a spectacle like none other. Her grandfather didn't speak, gmother turned her nose up, mother held her lip tight, sister rolled her eyes when I first got in the house. By the time her aunt told me I was "cute for a dark BOY" (I was 24) I had enough. Long story short, the entire family got a complete black history lesson from me and I bounced. Yes, the relationship ended soon thereafter. I tell every woman I meet, "if someone in my family offends you, I give you permission to address it." Fk that! I be damned if I'ma let a mthfka disrespect me and treat me less than a man. I'm never rude or shyt like that but u go know that I don't play that shyt. Kick rocks! *whispering* she married a green-eyed light boy and who does their son look like? The husbands very dark grandfather...Yeah that shyt is craaaazy!
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Name:
Bad_Kitty
Comment: fanteeking, McNasty: If either of you or anyone else knows of the name of the book about the Proctor's I would be very interested in reading it. Wendy Williams speaks about them every now and then on her show. This is nothing but black hatred at its lowest. You mess your lineage up genetically just to have skin as close to white as possible. That is horrible and SHAMEFUL.
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Name:
Venus
Comment: I worked with one of the Proctor's here in DC and didn't even know she was black until one of my friends schooled me about the family, lol. I met another one who had scoliosis (sp?) but never attributed it to the inbreeding factor. I would love to know the name of that book too.
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Name:
SweetieDarlin
Comment: The color thing continues and continues because we have not educated our own not to make the differences. In this day and age you still hear 'good' hair, which to me the only good hair is self washing, and whatever style you imagine it will created it and hold it without you having to do a thing, since that ain't happening, any hair you grow out of your good body is good hair. This shyt should have gone out in the 60s when I FIRST started hearing about it, then again I'm brown so I didn't have to feel the criticims one way or the other or better yet, I got the real criticism of DUN-DUN-DAAAAAAH BEING BLACK period. My mom who was considered light (yes she was an AKA made in the late 40s at Jackson State College for Negro Teachers) made a point for me to know color didn't matter, black was black. Wow! I feel so ignorant, I never heard of the Proctors, were they part of the blue vein society that only bred with other light skinned blacks? Tell me more!
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Name:
NYCsoul
Comment: I never heard of this Proctor family. Are these guys related to the Proctor and Gamble empire by any chance? This is very interesting and I would love to know more about this. This sounds like a book I read called "Passing' by Nella Larsen. The story was centered around a very fair skin woman 'passing' for white and married to a white man, who didn't her background. It's sad that this Proctor family has gone as far as 'inbreeding' to keep the 'color line' in check. It sounds really sick but it shows how ingrained our beliefs are on the color issue.
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Name:
Calidee
Comment: Wow Fan. That's really sad about your sister. But why she gotta be a piggy?
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Name:
mydchomegirl
Comment: <musbdherbs, I am so very proud of you and it served your former gf right! I am sure we can all share stories about our personal experiences that would all make our heads turn because I truly have some too...>HarrisThomas
Kiri Davis did the film "A Girl Like Me" that revisits the Kenneth Clark doll experiment where most of the kids chose the white doll over the black dolls as the most beautiful, smartest, etc. She was also on the CBC forum and did a great job. We must continue to validate our children by telling them how smart and beautiful they are. I explain to my children about the color game and tell them that they should never refer to any of their friends as "black" because we are all black no matter what our hue is. We are the only race of people that will love you to death and hate ourselves at the same time...
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Name:
GHank
Comment: It's a good thing I got a tough skin because I was always called names like "Spook That Sat By The Door" and "Spook From Another Planet". The best one was when someone told me that I was so black, when I get out of the car at night, all you see is the car open and close by itself". I admit, I had to fight over that one. In contrast, I was always told that light-skinned people can't fight because they hate to be bruised up. (LOL!) But the "BROWN PAPER BAG TEST" has been around since slavery.
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Name:
ShayLady
Comment: Is this Proctor story true? I've looked all over the internet for anything relevant, and I haven't found one thing. Please, tell us more if you know.
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Name:
DCGG
Comment: Yeah that proctor shyt is true lots of them mutherfuvkers in DC...Rock Newman the boxing promoter is one...they all look like retarded trailer trash...
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Name:
Calidee
Comment: Does the book "Free men in the Age of Servitude" by Lee H. Warner have anything to do with the Proctor family in question?
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Name:
SistaBigBone69
Comment: Me too would like to know about the Proctor's family. This is the first I heard as well. I can remember back to the late 60s and early 70s hearing my mother and aunts discussing how so and so did not like dark people. I was surprised when my aunt died in mid 90s that these people were still tripping about the skin color. The light skin that was tripping they did not sit with the family the sat across from us. Considering most of my family aunts uncles etc were close, but this particular set we only saw them when somebody died. I hope my great nephrew (he is one) do not have a complex due to how he acts around light skin and whites. I'm still tripping in how he has figured out the difference at one. Interesting. I've watched this show already. This show is a rerun. It initially aired 2 1/2 months ago. I hate that Meet the Faith is airing reruns so soon. Some of the topics were pretty interesting. I am medium brown skin and I remember as a kid my grandmother would not let me go outside and play around noon etc. Due to let her say "it would make be black" and she was darker than me. I remember her washing my face and arms with colorox. Probably why my face is jacked up now.....lol
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Name:
mydchomegirl
Comment: >ShayLady - It's very true! I know that Dr. Ronald Hall, from Michigan State University has done alot of study on colorism and also Paul Krause conducted a study on the history or the "Proctors" called "Color Scales".
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Name:
Tiedie
Comment: DCCG - you are on fire today! I'm loving every minute of it too. I don't even entertain discussion about light vs. dark. I think Black people who make this an issue in their lives are ignorant and have no real value to the society. This kind of nonsense is does nothing to improve our social condition in relation to other races.
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Name:
fanteeking
Comment: Caldee, I think piggys are cute. For those who want a great read get "Certain People-America's Black Elite" by Stephen Birmingham. It talks about this color issue as it manifests itself across the country. School Administrator Charlotte Hawkins Brown of South Carolina had an all girls finishing school in South Carolina. You had to be damn near white to get in there even though Mrs. Hawkins Brown was near Black. Nat King Cole's wife went there in the 40's and when Nat Cole would go there to visit Mrs. Hawkins Brown would get here jaws locked because he was toooo dark. Get that book yaw for a funny and educational read!!!
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Name:
musbdherbs
Comment: Too add a bit of clarity: There were groups of light-skinned blacks families that intermarried after the civil war (Proctor, Swann, Savoy and I think Tabscott. What's wild is that my boy looks Indian but identifies himself as black and I came up on this website that talks about the same damn thing. It's crazier than I thought. Well maybe not since ya'll hadn't heard anything about it b4 now..lol The birth defects and shyt is real...to this day kinda real too. http://www.freeafricanamericans.com/Intro_md.htm
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Name:
Calidee
Comment: Okay Fan :)
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Name:
PBF_19
Comment: It's amazing how it's 2007 and skin complexion is still an issue. It's ashame. I actually had a friend that told me that most light skinned people lie and cheat. I called him a racist and he got upset. This ignorance is ridiculous.
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Name:
fanteeking
Comment: "Stop that! You actin' like a bunch of wild Africans!!" When I wuz a kid, grown folks used to always holler this to me when I wuz playing or just being a kid. No wonder we were taugh to hate our roots. It was drilled into us. I wonder if others had this same experience.
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Name:
SweetieDarlin
Comment: Fanteeking> With my mom being a teacher and other black teacher were so glad in the 70s you were finally free to teach children about their heritage ( at least in Chicago Public School, back then you could actually determine what kids were taught as long as it fit the basic guidelines) I got the opposite, the teachers and my parents were very pro-black so you learned about Africa in a positive way, you were taught don't believe that old Tarzan shyt etc. Some of my teachers were down right radical so we visited the Muslims and heard about their doctrine, the Topigraphical Center (which preached black revolution against whites) etc. so you could view all facets of black thought. Until I got out my regular surroundings (like mind friends of course picked by my parents and family) I didn't realize it was color and hair were such issues. I probably tuned it all out, then again when I was little I didn't know there were white people I thought everyone was just various shades of black people (my parents had friends light enough to be white but my parents made sure I knew they were black.) BUT I hasten to sy I was very blessed, I do definately hear all the bull now and can see why many of us hate ourselves, our heritage.
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Name:
Zumbagirl
Comment: I was in high school in the 70s and, sad to say, I faced the worse, most hurtful prejudice from other blacks. I recall a "creole" classmate telling me I'd look better if I were lighter and an older "high yella" relative telling me I was "pretty for a black girl." At dances, my light-skinned girlfriends were always asked to dance first. Fortunately, I was blessed with a fabulous mom (who happens to be fair-skinned and of creole descent herself but you'd never know it) and extended family who taught me to love myself inside and out. It's hard to believe that we're still having the "debate" 30 years later. But we are not alone. Hispanics have similar issues re light vs. dark. Whites value blondes over all others . . .
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Name:
fanteeking
Comment: SweetieDarlin &Zumbagirl: I was from an earlier time zone and we were taught to be ashamed of Africa. When ever Africa was discussed, it was in negative, cannabalistic, heathen-like vein. Many of those prim and proper Black teachers who taught me were ashamed of being Black and hated their race. Everything was European-oriented. I could bring an LP by Beethoven or Brahms to school, but would have gotten my azz beaten, if I brought B B King or Muddy Waters under my arm. Zumbagirl, I only thought this color thing wuz an African-American phenomena, but when lived in Ethiopia, it was the same B. S. How many times I heard spoken in Amharic, "She would be so much more beautiful, if she had a little more "wotet". Wotet means milk in Ethiopian language. When I was there, I was proud to see dark skinned Ethiopian looking Jesus and Mary, but now am told those American & European evangelicsls have replaced them with Charlton Heston/Elizabeth Taylor looking images. MESSAGE: Be careful who you let into your country. They'll destroy your history and culture!!
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Name:
Jack_Blackmusic
Comment: For an educated discussion of this and similar topics I strongly suggest checking out the works of the Great Af-Am Author J.A. Rogers who wrote extensively of the subject of race, and relations.
"Nature Knows no Color-Line"
"The Worlds Great Men of Color"
"Sex & Race"
"The Worlds Great Men of African Decent"
I'll bet that any body who will check on Mr. Roger's work will come away mind-blown. Don't let TV limit your knowledge. The TV Show seems OK, but will probably be limited in scope. I have had my J.A. Rogers books since College, and have passed them down to my son, and family.
This is some really hard-hittin' shyt;please check this man out!
Here is a link for those who wish to delve in to this great man's life:
http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/rogers-ref.html
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Name:
dcgal
Comment: I knew a Proctor too - she was an absolute nut job.
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Name:
McNasty
Comment: Fanteeking - no they created one in Upper Marlboro, Maryland and back then (before the big family homes) it was mostly woods. Kinda like they were hiding.
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Name:
McNasty
Comment: NYC the proctors are a whole slew of inbreds that are very closely related to each other. Just like mountain folk who've been so fukked up in the head for so many years they almost have no language now for the reason that they hide. Proctors used to limit their marriages to first cousins but sometime later did what mountain folk do - pairing brother and sister together and thinking nothing of it but that that is the way to keep that very light beige almost transparent skin. Never mind that so and so has no cleft palate or that the daughter has arms that come to her knees or a cousin that looks like he was created by the same man that created swamp thing.
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Name:
PRDC
Comment: Be grateful for what God has blessed you with. This light skin and dark skin thing is crazy. I'm light skin in the winter and black than black in the summer because I love the sun. We have been taught to hate our blackness, but that was back in slavery, but I see black people still have that stupid mentality. All races fight about something, just being ungrateful. One thing for sure, they don't know God,because you can be light one minute and something can happen to turn you dark. I'm black and beautiful and that's it....
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Name:
khufu
Comment: FANTEEKING the color thing has been done over and over and over academically.....
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Name:
khufu
Comment: intersting how none of the comments deal with the origin of the skin color issue...the fact that no one has speaks to the source of the problem and folks not really being able to deal with the source of all of the plights facing Black folks..
SLAVERY...
yall dont want to talk about it
'cause if you do, youre going to have to deal with a whole bunch of realities and truths that will shatter the illusion you live under and within
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Name:
khufu
Comment: JACKBLACK...I love Rogers and have his books but have one issue with him:
he was driven by his need to be accepted by white folks......
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Name:
khufu
Comment: FANTEEKING power to you....write on...right on
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Name:
khufu
Comment: what does "Multi-racial" mean? Is it a valid term?
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Name:
shulamite
Comment: They are called the "Wesorts" from Maryland/DC area and classify themselves as Native American instead of black.
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Name:
McNasty
Comment: Shulamite I thought that word was Resought.
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Name:
khufu
Comment: They Came Before Columbus by Ivan Van Sertima
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Name:
mydchomegirl
Comment: >Khufu - I was waiting for you to jump on board! I am sure that most of us know that the whole color issue started with the field and house n*gger issue during slavery. It is amazing how the white man has enslaved our minds today. It is all done through the television, videos, magazines, etc. telling us that the more european features you have the better you look. People are dying to be thin even someone like Kanye's mother (RIP). We have to learn to love ourselves and how God made us. I won't even touch the Proctor issue because it's just SICK...
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Name:
McNasty
Comment: Khufu at some point we are going to have to take responsibility for what we passed down in recent years and quit reaching back to slavery. We are responsible for the color controversy because we certainly didn't have to feed into it and especially when we knew better. It still exists because of us and no other reason. When light skins realize they are as ugly inside and out as darker skinned folk most of this shat will fall by the wayside. When those of darker skin color quit letting what some freckled face redbone says affect how they really feel about themselves, well, that's the other part of the problem. There are two things in this life we can't do a damn thing about and have to learn to accept - the weather and our skin tone!
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Name:
McNasty
Comment: How is it that a strong and committed work ethic was passed down along with enough of our history and culture but we didn't get that?!! We better get real with ourselves and quit doing things that we feel it necessary to keep blaming the foremothers and fathers.
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Name:
khufu
Comment: MCNASTY you ever read Franz Fanon's Wretched of the Earth?
see, the oppressed association with their oppressor is a lil deeper than just saying " we shouldnt have bought into it."
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Name:
khufu
Comment: in order to solve any problem, the origins of the problem have to be identified....
this is universal...
in order to understand the skin colour thing, we must go back to the origins of the issue and do WHATEVER work is neccesary there before we can adequately and effectively deal with the present....
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Name:
khufu
Comment: now, let's first establish that long "silky" and "straight" hair started with Black folks prior to their contact with Europeans..
look to Ethiopia, Sudan, etc
as well as pointy noses and other "fine" features....
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Name:
khufu
Comment: However, we know that most folks wanting "good" hair, etc want it because of the association with white folks...
light eyes are a deficiency ...fact
Historically, prior to the 60s, most light skinned Black folks in America are products are rapes......nothing to be proud of
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Name:
McNasty
Comment: We've identified the origins to death, we've analyzed them to the teeth and at some point we have to take the blame for where we stand now. Khufu it's us plain and simple - fact is I never met the ancestors so they couldn't be my immediate influence - but my parents and grandparents can and were.
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Name:
SmokeyBones2004
Comment: Kungfu you are wrong. Black amd whites married, some Whites even married slaves (until it was declared illegal). The ODR came t bein the 19th Century. Ask your self why AAs are still believing in it and not calling YT on it? SELF-HATE, that's why.
NEWSFLAH: So-called Light-skinned Blacks (50% or more White) are only Black in America. Elsewhere they are called by their true and proper name- mixed raced.
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Name:
lucyrose
Comment: One day I was on the phone with who I thought was a friend describing what my boyfriend at the time (now husband) like in a womam i said that he like light skinned black woman with long hair oh she said he likes white women I was so ofended you mean to tell me that being a light skinned BLACK WOMAN is not a type of woman we are just substitute for white woman? my husband is not attaracted to white woman I have not spoke to the bytch since that was in 2002
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Name:
PRDC
Comment: It's a deep rooted thang....until people realize what color is all about, things will remain the same. You have beautiful, handsome, pretty people everywhere in the world, but until you understand..this subject will always be around for discussion.
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Name:
katgrrrl
Comment: I haven't read alllll of the comments so I dunno if anyone's already mentioned a book called The Color Complex: The Politics of Skin Color Among African Americans that address all of the light vs. dark skin, good vs. bad hair, etc. Interesting read... <> This topic ain't goin' nowhere. Ever. Even if we were all exactly the same shade, it would be about something else; hair texture and/or color, height, etc. People will always find something to focus on in the name of division.
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Name:
NYCsoul
Comment: McNasty> Thank you for the information. I had no idea about these people and never heard of them. I wonder if any SANE family members have said that this is wrong and have tried to break away?
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Name:
Tiedie
Comment: McNasty - How are you today? I appreciate and support your posts. You are dead on target with your point of view. My brother is 6'3", broad-shoulders, & dark. He is a top level executive for an online marketing firm. The company he works for shared office space with another organization. There was a light-skin blk guy working with this other group. My brother said he overhead this guy trying to explain the color differences of African Americans to one of his Asian co-workers. He tried to get my broter involved but my brother told him he did not participate in that type of ignorance with Blacks, and he certainly wasn't going to assist in passing it on to other races. This guy told my brother he had more reason to be feared in the workplace because he was dark, therefore easily percieved as a threat. The said he was safe because most non-blks didn't believe he could be possibly be black because of his light skin. Long story short, the light skinned guy ended up getting fired because he made a few flip comments to, and about, his Hispanic supervisor. He was told his lanaguage and behavior was offensive to several co-workers and clients. Of course he couldn't believe he was being let go for something so trivial. My brother pointed out to him that in the eyes of AmeriKKKa he was still BLACK.
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Name:
khufu
Comment: lol SMOKEYBONES...about 1%
the majority of Black and white children came from rape and sexual exploitation...sorry...you can romanticize the truth all you want........I will give you 2% of those Black and white children born during slavery were "marriage."
the other 98 percent was rape......
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